Commons:Categories for discussion/2018/04/Category:Pubs

From Wikimedia Commons, the free media repository
Jump to navigation Jump to search
This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Category:Pubs

[edit]

If we have no rule about the difference between Category:Pubs and Category:Bars, how are we meant to decide which content goes where? Why is Category:Ruin pubs not Category:Ruin bars and a sub-category of Category:Bars?[1] [2] Are Category:Pub signs, Category:Tavern signs and Category:Bar signs different in any visble way? I expect some people might oppose a merger, but perhaps we can organize this in some better way. Themightyquill (talk) 14:44, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't necessarily suggest a merger into Category:Pubs but I do note that Category:Bars ends up containing images like this and this. - Themightyquill (talk) 14:47, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have started Category:Bars (objects), I'd even argue that the WP article should be moved but the Commons cat, definitely. I'd not expect it to be about the drinking establishments. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:44, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say the difference between the two is highly dependent upon your particular region - rules for admission to children vary by district, and atmosphere is not subject to laws. A bar can be a discotheque or a pub. A pub can serve food or not. I'd agree that "pub" or Public House is used more in countries with a connection to the UK but Category:Pubs by country defies that. So we can pick one generic term for everything, or categorizing drinking establishments based on their name, in which case we also need to create category trees for Category:Taverns, Category:Saloons and Category:Lounges, as well as "Kneipe" or "Wirtshaus" (german), "kocsma" (Hungarian), "pivnica" (czech), etc. - Themightyquill (talk) 10:37, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd agree that there isn't much point in making a distinction, maybe we should just turn Category:Bars into a DAB page and move the contents to the equivalent category in Category:Pubs. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:42, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Crouch, Swale: How is Category:Bars (objects) intended to relate to Category:Bars and rods (which is listed as part of the existing disambiguation category at Category:Bar, as mentioned right at the top of Category:Bars)? And you also want to turn Category:Bars into one? It's always good to have a look around to see what already exists before creating new categories, you know... —LX (talk, contribs) 14:27, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks LX I have merged it, I did have a look around but surprisingly couldn't find anything. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:42, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Crouch, Swale: I agree with turning Category:Bars into a DAB page. I'm not sure privileging Category:Pubs as the catch-all makes sense. I'm now either thinking Category:Alcohol drinking establishments or Category:Bars and pubs (Category:Pubs and bars?). - Themightyquill (talk) 06:43, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That seems a bit of an odd title, and I think "Pubs" is unambiguous and clear enough to be at the baename and used for both, but that might be different in different countries. See w:WP:ATDAB and the example of Elevator/Lift. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:50, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if that's consensus, I'll accept it. I thought of Category:Bars and pubs after seeing Category:Roads and streets but that's not an ideal system either.
Looking at Category:Bars, some of the sub-categories would need to change as well.

- Does that make sense? - Themightyquill (talk) 11:49, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I'd agree with those changes, noting that common use for keeping some is good. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:42, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto. Category:Saloons‎ might also refer to vehicles, so prefer Category:Saloon bars, once common in the UK. Rodhullandemu (talk) 16:16, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Rodhullandemu: You prefer Category:Saloon bars over Category:Western saloons? I would think it would make more sense to match the wikipedia article in this case, emphasizing it essentially as a western-themed pub. - Themightyquill (talk) 06:40, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Themightyquill: I think they are different things. In the UK some pubs had separate rooms, basically separated along class lines; the saloon bar (sometimes lounge bar) was up-market while the public bar had only basic appointments and intended for workers. They often had separate entrances. So I have no problem with Western saloons but perhaps Saloons should be a disambiguation page. Rodhullandemu (talk) 08:05, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Category:Pubs, it's a very common description of something in UK English that is not a 'bar' (though pubs have bars and there are drinks establishments called bars in UK English too). I'm sure 'Bars' can mean something similar in American English, but as others have pointed out, Bars can be other things too, so I'm surprised it isn't already disambiguated. Sionk (talk) 19:40, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In case it's of interest, in American English, the word bar by itself can mean many things. Even when it's understood to be referring to a place related to drinks, it can mean an establishment whose primary business is selling alcoholic drinks, a part of a larger establishment where drinks are sold/prepared (such as a bar inside of a restaurant), or even a small area in a home or at a social function (such as a wedding) where alcohol is kept and where drinks are poured/mixed. --Auntof6 (talk) 21:39, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think in England, a bar is the place where things are served, while "pub" refers to the whole building. I'd note the discussion at Commons:Categories for discussion/2012/10/Category:Inns in the United Kingdom, @Nilfanion: and @Nyttend: . Crouch, Swale (talk) 06:35, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
All the pubs I've been in (which is admittedly few) have served both food and drinks. Is that not the case with all pubs? --Auntof6 (talk) 08:16, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, in this case the bar is what also serves the food and other drinks as well. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:19, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment All the alternative meanings for bar mentioned by Auntof6 (except the establishment itself) would apply in the UK. An additional complication surrounds those occasions when "bar" is used to mean the establishment. For instance a typical British gay bar would be a nightclub, and would emphatically not be a pub. So in the UK, gay bars are not seen as a subset of pubs. I'd imagine that in the US, gay bars are seen as a subset of bars? Similar issues will surround the other types of bar which exist in the UK, like cocktail bars and wine bars.
I'd suggest some of the renames proposed above are incorrect for UK usage: The drinking venue within a ship would be a bar, while things like stools and counters are bar (not pub) furniture.--Nilfanion (talk) 07:23, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Nilfanion, Auntof6, Crouch, Swale, and Sionk: I realize the different names for alcohol drinking establishments are not synonymous. It's obvious that they have different meanings. But those differences vary greatly from place to place. I ackowledge that most people would not necessary think of certain types of "alcohol-drinking establishments" as "public houses/pubs" but unless we can accept "pubs" a catch-all term, then we need a different base category, either Category:Alcohol drinking establishments or Category:Pubs and bars. Night club-style places might dominate for "gay bars" but the term en:Gay bars is surely not limited to that definition, in the US or the UK. And surely the term "bar" in "gay bar", "wine bar" or "cocktail bar" refers to the whole place, not the drinking counter or a place for drinking within a larger location like a cruise ship. For the reasons stated above, it doesn't make sense to categorize these places by name, unless we want a multiple name category trees for each language on earth. Right now we have

And that doesn't seem to bother anyone, because everyone knows that, despite variations, pubs and bars have the same base meaning. - Themightyquill (talk) 07:39, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd note that in the case of Category:Petrol stations by country there is Category:Gas stations in the United States and Category:Petrol stations in the United Kingdom due to the different term for the same thing, maybe that should be the case here, but Bars appears to be too ambiguous as Category:Bars in the United States could attract other things as pointed out by Auntof6, so maybe just using pubs would work globally. Crouch, Swale (talk) 07:49, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nightclubs and pubs are definitely distinct concepts. A gay bar is typically a nightclub, but might be something else. Having the generic gay bar category in both is problematic, as each individual establishment is one or the other. Ultimately a pub is a class of establishment, and a bar is a different class of establishment. The set union of "pub in en-gb" and "bar in en-us" is not "pubs" and is not "bars".
With regards to the furniture, that tree makes perfect sense in UK terms: A pub contains a bar, which is either a room or a distinct area in a larger room, and that is where the bar furniture is located.
Whatever the outcome of this I have a strong dislike for a combination term like "pubs and bars". That just begs for people to create the two obvious and natural subcategories, does not really capture everything in a strict sense and so is not a stable long term solution. I can live with pubs as the top-level category, but it needs to be treated with caution. And it needs to respect regional variation in the country-level categories.--Nilfanion (talk) 08:23, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think juice bars is any more of a threat to confusion under Category:Pubs and bars than Category:Gas bars. I don't like the combination either, but no one has come up with a decent way to avoid having Category:Kneipen, Category:Wirtshausen, Category:Taverns, Category:Saloons, Category:Kocsmak, Category:Pivnicy and every other possible name for pub and bar in each other language. If we just accept that these words can't be clearly defined but continue to use them as broad categories, they become useless and untranslatable. "Bar" doesn't necessarily mean the same thing in different regions of the United States. I can't think of an equivalent, but it would be something like having Category:Beverages, with sub-categories like Category:Soda & Category:Soda in California, Category:Pop & Category:Pop in Ontario, Category:Fizz drinks & Category:Fizzy drinks in the United Kingdom, but then also, at random, making Category:Soda in Uzbekistan, Category:Pop in China, and Category:Fizz drinks in Croatia. And also having Category:Lemon-flavoured fizz drinks, but Category:Cola-flavoured pop and Category:Orange-flavoured sodas -- Themightyquill (talk) 18:38, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Its not that one is the typical US term and the other is the typical UK term for the same concept, as is the case with soda/pop etc. The problem is bars are a subtly different concept to pubs. A better analog might be something like "conifers" and "evergreens". To residents of the UK, its likely the trees they think of for either grouping happen to belong to both, but that doesn't mean the terms are interchangeable.
Same is true for bars/pubs and that is because both "pub" in en-gb and "bar" in en-us relate to specific aspects of their national cultures. They are not synonyms needing a single category, but are two heavily overlapping aspects of a broader concept.
The various similar concepts in other countries are not identical to either of the two English language terms. There is nothing wrong with having categories for "pubs in the UK" and "bars in the US", and the same is true for the appropriate local terms in other countries. They describe well-defined specific concept in those nations. However, a category like "pubs in Saudi Arabia" is dubious. Instead of trying to shoehorn them all into the same box, ignoring the subtle differences, just go to the higher level concept. We should embrace the differences between different nations, and acknowledge that a German gasthaus is different to an Irish pub. Category:Drinking establishments is fine.
To amplify that, calling a typical bar in NYC a "pub" would seem unnatural to Americans (what's a pub or isn't that one of those English/Irish-themed places?). It would also seem unnatural to a Brit (that's not a pub!). The same is true for calling a pub in London a "bar", it would seem wrong to both a resident Brit and a visiting American.--Nilfanion (talk) 20:39, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Nilfanion: I would respectfully suggest that your understanding of the usage of both "pub" and "bar" in North America (or perhaps, outside the UK) is confused. Pub and bar can indeed be interchangeable in some regional contexts, even if they can't be in the UK. One city, chosen at random. Whatever is done in the UK tree (where the rules are apparently stricter), we need something for the rest of the world, to avoid a different category tree for each language and each country. :Or we end up with this: Category:Bares, botecos, botequins e tavernas da cidade do Rio de Janeiro and this Category:Bars and nightclubs in Toronto‎ - Themightyquill (talk) 21:25, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Some bars are pubs. Some pubs are bars. That is not the same as a 1:1 correspondence. That is reinforced by your Seattle link, which implies some bars in Seattle are pubs and some are not. And what is wrong with having the already existing global term (drinking establishments) and appropriate regional names?--Nilfanion (talk) 21:34, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Nilfanion: As you seem to agree, there aren't always clear/appropriate regional names the way there are in the UK. So in those cases, we put all pubs and bars in the base category Category:Drinking establishments in the United States, etc? I was hoping we could find a more specific term to at least narrow the scope to alcohol-drinking establishments. - Themightyquill (talk) 06:35, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Establishments that serve alcoholic drinks? Establishments that primarily serve alcoholic drinks (to rule out general restaurants, for example)? --Auntof6 (talk) 07:44, 11

May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but perhaps something that rolls off the tongue (or fingers) faster than Category:Establishments that primarily serve alcoholic drinks in the United States ? =) - Themightyquill (talk) 13:27, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
IMO just "drinking establishment" is fine, its implicit that the primary purpose is to serve drink, as opposed to a restaurant which is primarily about food. The non-alcoholic aspect of this is a bit irrelevant, as a bar that only serves non-alcoholic drinks is still a bar and as such is still highly related to its alcoholic equivalents. And almost every place that sells alcoholic drinks will also sells non-alcoholic ones. Therefore, don't waste time over-complicating it :)
Appropriate regional terms can be used to avoid that clunky title. I note that in the US the phrase "bars and restaurants" appears well understood, and often has some sort of legal basis (such as the 51% law in Texas). That would suggest that in the US, "bar" may be a suitable term for all places that sell drinks and are not restaurants.--Nilfanion (talk) 15:22, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Could a coffee shop be considered a drinking establishment? --Auntof6 (talk) 21:44, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Auntof6: Yes, cafes and tea houses/rooms are currently in Category:Drinking establishments, and none of the parent categories relate to alcohol. - Themightyquill (talk) 22:54, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Would support having a single term at least at national level. I am struggling to see the difference between the contents of Category:Bars in the London Borough of Croydon and Category:Pubs in the London Borough of Croydon except in some cases (not all) the name. Most of the content in the former category was moved there from the latter cat. I always thought Bar refereed primarily to Category:Bar counters and more loosely to establishments containing them which can also be called a pub, tavern etc. Oxyman (talk) 20:06, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Category:Pubs as is. Visually, pubs are - at least in Britain - very different to bars, i.e. very traditional, with old wooden floors and furniture and brick walls, sometimes also with gardens. Pubs also have an emphasis on serving pints of beer (rather than cocktails and other fancy drinks found in bars). Bars are open later, don't admit children and generally have louder music. Lamberhurst (talk) 10:06, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep both Category:Bars and Category:Pubs. en:Bar is a broad term for all commercial places selling beverages for on-premises consumption. Pubs are more specific to British cultural influence. The exact meaning and inference of both words will vary widely based on local customs, laws, and commercial interests, but Category:Bars as the broad category, and Category:Pubs for the British-styled definition as provided on that category seem fine to me to keep as is. Josh (talk) 20:30, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    If we are to keep a separate Bars category for the drinking places then I'd still suggest renaming to a qualified term to avoid confusion with the other types of bars. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:54, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Note that w:Bar is now a DAB with the establishment back at w:Bar (establishment) so we should move to something like Category:Bars (establishments). Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:38, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • IMHO, "pubs" are a subset of "bars" (as seen in France), just with a British (or Germanic) style, and we expect to be able to drink a choice of good beers there. Pubs are normally only indoor with a "cosy" ambiance (though they also may have terraces outdoor, open with good weather conditions). Both bars and pubs may serve food (including takeovers and fastfood in cartons, not just on a normal plate). Bars vary a lot in terms of space; they are not necessarily buildings, they may just be a dedicated place where we can find drink sometimes limited to just a piece of furniture or equipment, and bars don't necessarily have personal to serve you, they may be in self-service (see "mini" bars in hotels). They can be cabans on a beach. Or just installed in private homes, they are not necessarily commercial "establishments" (you may find bars in associations or workplaces, even if you don't find alcohol, with just some equipement in self-service, sometimes a table and maybe some chairs to sit down, and you may have to wash the glasses/cups/spoons/plates and tables yourself. So bars are not a subset of "drinking establishments", though "pubs" (that are a subset of "bars") are establishments (but also not necessarily commercial). Whever you find food or not in bars or pubs is independant. If you find food, they qualify as "restaurants", and "pubs" or "bars" that serve food commercially are called "brasseries" (very near from commercial "pubs", except that the English cosy style is not required, and you must be able to be served on table; this is not always the case with English "pubs", that don't necessarily have individual tables, just a "bar" in front of servers, the rest of the room may be for drinking in standup with your glass in the hand, or far dancing and listening music). You may or may not find music played in pubs and bars (by artists playing live, with a scene or an instrument like in "piano-bars", or with a DJ, or just a radio). So in concusion, all "pubs" are "bars", all "pubs" (but not all "bars") are "establishments". Not all pubs or bars are restaurants. All brasseries (like also fastfoods) are restaurants (the difference being the form of service for all these restaurants, but all may include takeaway service, while brassseries must include a service on table). It is then impossible to merge all these categories, they are clearly not equivalent. verdy_p (talk) 20:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, I just noticed that this discussion has been open since April 2018, and my comment above was the only contribution in almost a year. I suggest this discussion be Closed unless there is a counter argument that leaving it open is likely to generate more discussion leading to improvements in categorization. Both "Category:Pubs" and "Category:Bars" have "see also" notes to each other, and both are subsets of "Category:Drinking establishments" and "Category:Alcohol culture". This seems appropriate. As discussed above, definitions of the two terms seem to have various different nuances depending on location and culture. IMO we can wrap this discussion up, keeping both "Pubs" and "Bars" categories. -- Infrogmation of New Orleans (talk) 22:39, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree, close this discussion. Simon Burchell (talk) 12:40, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Closed, both categories kept, per discussion. -- Infrogmation of New Orleans (talk) 15:12, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Categories_for_discussion/2018/04/Category:Pubs&oldid=690255114"