Commons:Categories for discussion/2012/10/Category:Nisida

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Category:Nisida

There is a problem with the categorization of the Category:Nisida. Nisida is a volcano-island in the bay of Naples. It is part of a volcanic area W of Naples called Campi Flegrei (Phlegraean Fields). In Campi Flegrei there are volcanoes, mountains, lakes, islands, municipalities, villages, archaeological sites, natural reserves, etc. From the geological point of view, part of Campi Flegrei are the island of Procida, Vivara and Ischia too.

From the administrative point of view the whole area of Campi Flegrei is subdivided between the municipalities of Naples, Pozzuoli, Bacoli, Monte di Procida, Quarto Flegreo. Now a user continue to cancel the cat Campi Flegrei from the cat Nisida as an overcategorization, because administratively Nisida depends from the village Bagnoli which is a district of Naples.

I think that geographical areas must be distinguished from administrative areas. Administrative areas is a matter which can change during the time; geographical areas doesn't change for millennia. And an administrative subdivision has nothing to do with the geological features of a geographical area. Tyrol is a geographic area: a time it was all in the Austro-Ungaric Empire, now it is subdivided administratively between Austria (Tyrol) and Italy (South Tyrol). But from the geographical point of view it remains Tyrol.

In our case, at present the situation is as follows:

1. in the cat “Campi Flegrei” there are all part of them without the volcano-island Nisida;
2. the category Nisida has been blocked for a month;
3. if I add again the cat Campi Flegrei to the cat Nisida, I will be blocked too.

I would like that we discuss about this problem that affects not only the category Nisida. To distinguish the geographical location or geological area from a politically belonging or an administrative subdivision, and do not consider this a overcategorization, I think that interests all geographical areas in the world. And together we have to decide if in these cases there is a overcategorization or not. --DenghiùComm (talk) 12:15, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

First of all I would like to puntualize that there is not any problem rather than the one the above user created by overcategorizing an otherwise correctely categorized item. I had to protect the category just in order to be soft and avoid blocking the user who was keeping on rollbacking my edits and overcategorizing Nisida. There's a guideline about overcategorization that the user still seem to ignore, and I guess there's no space for exceptions. Even the comparison with Tyrol is fallacious because Tyrol as region has a category, and both Italy's and Austria's Tyrol have one category each just because the two things are not the same. Nisida as whole is administratively part of Bagnoli which is entirely part of Campi Flegrei, thus no need to place Nisida elsewhere up the tree. -- SERGIO ^{(aka the Blackcat)} 16:36, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
P.S. For those who don't speak Italian I translate the diff: «Since it wasn't clear to you [meaning: that you must not OVERCAT] I protected the category. If you overcategorize it again once the protection has expired I'm going to block you».

Nisida is a volcano and an island in the sea. Bagnoli is a village on the mainland 2 km far from Nisida. Nisida is not a village and Bagnoli is not on the volcano-island of Nisida. --DenghiùComm (talk) 07:14, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

If there are really two different ways to use the name (which I don't know, I take for granted what you write), we can split the category according with the names e.g. "Campi Flegrei (geographical area)" and "Campi Flegrei (administrative area)", and even "Campi Flegrei (mythology)" then use "Campi Flegrei" alone as a mother-category for them all. We have done it hundreds of times before, here on Commons, so I can't really see why a dispute arose in the first place... P.S: Sergio, as an adm you are supposed to work out solutions, not to force them... --User:G.dallorto (talk) 09:44, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. Thus the principle of "not-overcategorizing" an item is per se right. It's the category name that's wrong. If there's a category with another name it's fine for me, but in this case we must create a disambiguation page. Giovanni, am not forcing a solution, I am simply stating that at the state of the art the categorization as it is is right. An alternate category is welcome, but the point was that Denghiù was forcing towards categorizing the same category in two items of the same leg, which is not allowed here. -- SERGIO ^{(aka the Blackcat)} 17:18, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that Sergio consider a unique chain for two different branches. Sergio considers the geological or topographical belonging the same as the administrative or political allocation. While these are sure two different things. If he should be right, what would be the wrong category for the Borromean Islands, Lake Maggiore (the geographical location where they are) or the town of Stresa (the municipality from which they are part and depends)? One thing is the belonging, another thing is the location. In this sense I do not see a difference with the categorization of a painting. One thing is the attribution of a painting to an artist (who generally do not change), another thing is the location of the painting (a museum, or a church, or a private collection) that can change over time. Here we have a volcano-island that belongs to the volcanic area called Campi Flegrei (and this does not change), and from the the administrative point of view currently it is located in the territory of the village of Bagnoli (which is a location that can change in the time, maybe tomorrow it will combined with Posillipo or Pozzuoli). That's why I consider that to attribute the category Campi Flegrei to the island of Nisida and to the village of Bagnoli too, is not a overcategorization, but a necessary and proper categorization. --DenghiùComm (talk) 17:22, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that a category is a mathematic set. If B is a subset of A, and an element is into B, it's automatically included in A. No use to be contemporarily into A and B being B a subset of A. If an element must be in two separate sets one of which is a subset of the other, then it's the element's name that is wrong. This is Set theory, not an invention of mine. -- SERGIO ^{(aka the Blackcat)} 15:43, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Is Commons a mathematic or a media project? --DenghiùComm (talk) 19:11, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Is a project where rules must be observed. -- SERGIO ^{(aka the Blackcat)} 10:05, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

The Nisida territory is indeed part of the Bagnoli (District of Naples) administrative item. Nisida however is more than just an administrative item;

• as an island, it is part of the Category:Flegree Islands, this has nothing to do with Bagnoli
• as a vulcano that erupted 10000 years ago, it is part of the Category:Campi Flegrei, this is side by side with the vulcaneous area of Bagnoli
• as a potential set of prison or prison camps from the past, nothing to do with Bagnoli
• as a potential Category:Archaeological sites in Italy for Roman villas or potentially a monastery, nothing to do with Bagnoli.

So we should not forget that Nisida has several roles, and in each of the roles, it has to be categorised as the specific schema for that role. This has nothing to do with overcategorisation. --Foroa (talk) 18:38, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately for you, it has instead. Unless there are two separate categories like Nisida (administrative subdivision) and Nisida (island), which may allow each of them to be in two separate branches of the same tree. But until there's only category, it can't be in two subsets of the same tree. -- SERGIO ^{(aka the Blackcat)} 15:29, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

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Problem solved. Foroa created the new category Flegree Islands where subcategorizing Nisida without overcategorizing in the Campi Flegrei's tree. -- SERGIO ^{(aka the Blackcat)} 14:36, 14 December 2012 (UTC)