Category talk:Wirral Peninsula

Re: Wirral categories

Hi Skinsmoke,

Thanks very much for recatting and fixing many of the images in the Wirral/Cheshire categories.

Just to let you know that in addition to the Cheshire heirarchies, we also have heirarchies for the Wirral peninsula, which has always (even before I used commons) contained images from both the Merseysdie and Cheshire parts of Wirral.

The way this has been dealt with is to put anything that is in Wirral into the Wirral categories, and then have the Wirral categories appear in both the Merseyside and Cheshire heirachies.

Of course this is very much open to debate, but it does allow anyone searching in either Merseyside, Cheshire or Wirral categories to find anything at all on the Wirral via any of those three routes. This is why I have put some of the Wirral related stuff e.g. "Ness Gardens" (which is in Wirral) back into the Wirral tree. Taking it out means that it couldn't be found via the Wirral heirarchy. This way it can still be found via the Cheshire heirarchy too. I hope that makes sense. Of course please let me know if you disgaree, but the Wirral is a bit of a unique case, being a small self-contained geographical enitity that unfortunately straddles two counties.

Thanks again Benkid77 (talk) 08:42, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. I was following the English Wikipedia rule that places go in their ceremonial county, which in this case would be Cheshire. I wonder if the way round wouldn't be to have a Wirral Peninsula category (or alternatively a Metropolitan Borough of Wirral category). Must admit the whole lot was begining to swim in front of my eyes, and I was wishing I had never got sidetracked (I set off trying to get some of the images in Cheshire into subcategories, and one thing sort of led to another.... Two hours later!). What do you think? Skinsmoke (talk) 08:51, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Just checked and English Wikipedia does indeed use the two pages Wirral Peninsula and Metropolitan Borough of Wirral. Skinsmoke (talk) 08:57, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think there is a strong case for splitting the whole Wirral hierachy into two, the Metropolitain borough of Wirral, Merseyside and "South Wirral, Cheshire". This would totally solve the issue and completely comply with the usual method of respecting the sorting of images as per the ceremonial counties. Until this is done, I think people will still put Wirral stuff randomly into either Wirral/Merseyside or Cheshire categories. The only reason I haven't made this change until now was that the Wirral heirarchies have grown so big, so it's something of a mammoth task. The second reason is that it does somewhat leave the part of Wirral that is in Cheshire somewhat vague. So it needs at little further thought as to what to do with places in "Wirral Cheshire", perhaps it's best just to absorb them back into the Cheshire heirarchy, although they may be a issue of people still putting images from those locations into Wirral cats, as kept happening in the past. I'm certainly open to the idea of this change though and as I know the Merseyside/Cheshire boundary well, I'd certainly be willing to implement the above change. Perhaps I should move this discussion to the Wirral talk page. This debate is certainly needed. Regards, Benkid77 (talk) 09:08, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

The other issue is also what to do with things like Category:The Wirral Way, "M53 motorway", "Saltmarshes in Wirral" and these other things that straddle the two parts of Wirral. I'm sure something can be worked out though, by placing them in multiple cats and/or dissovling some of those cats. Benkid77 (talk) 09:12, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

How about a new category of Wirral Peninsula. Metropolitan Borough of Wirral would be a subcategory of both that and Merseyside. Wirral Peninsula would be a subcategory of both Merseyside and Cheshire West and Chester The others, where they cover both sides of the border, could go into both The Wirral Peninsula and the two local authority areas. Skinsmoke (talk) 09:21, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, sounds good, I agree with your plan. I think it would solve the issue. "Having the "Wirral peninsula" cat still would allow for the above "pan-Wirral" things that I mention. Having the metropolitan borough cat underneath still allows the ceremonial counties to be repected. I can make a start on changing some of the cats soon. Cheers Benkid77 (talk) 09:27, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

If I ever finish this Cheshire thing I'll give you a hand. Will be later tonight though. Skinsmoke (talk) 09:43, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, that's great. Thanks very much. I'm in work at the moment so time permitting, I'll try to have a look at this today, I will make a start on it as soon as I get the chance. If not, it may be this evening, as you say. But I'm 100% sure it needs doing, to prevent future confusion over the categorisation of Wirral-related images. Benkid77 (talk) 10:00, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Restructuring of Wirral categories

OK I've made a start on this.

I've created Category:Wirral Peninsula and Category:Metropolitan Borough of Wirral, which are now completely unambiguous.

Since the previous potentially ambigous "Wirral" category in practice covered the whole Wirral Penenisua,. I have for now placed a soft redirect from that category to the Wirral Peninsula category.

Also changed the Wirral gallery to refer to the whole peninsula catagory.

I will next move all of the subcategories over from "Wirral to the new "Wirral Peninsula" category as the first step.

Second step will be the separating out of the Merseyside and Cheshire parts of each subcategory.

I will start with the "Towns and villages" section. Benkid77 (talk) 11:29, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, I've now finished splitting Category:Towns and villages in Wirral into the Merseyside and Cheshire subcategories. They can now be searched via Merseyside where applicable, Cheshire where applicable, and also searching via Wirral also allows finding all of the Towns and villages of the Wirral Peninsula, regardless of which county they are in which is very useful too. Next job will be to look at the other categories. Generally I aim to split them in a similar way, with the bulk of the categories being moved into the "Metropolitan Borough" subcategory. Will hopefully get back to this sometime later. Benkid77 (talk) 12:46, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

As you were also working on "Visitor attractions in Cheshire" today, I have now also split the "Visitor attractions in Wirral" subcategory. Think of this as a prototype for splitting all of the other Wirral subcategories into their respective ceremonial counties. Now we have the situation where only visitor attractions in the Cheshire part of Wirral will be found via "Visitor attractions in Cheshire" -> "Visitor attractions in Wirral, Cheshire". Only visitor attractions in Merseyside will be found via "Visitor attractions in Merseyside" -> "Visitor attractions in the Metropolitan Borough of Wirral". There is no cross-county pollution of images in the Wirral subcategories, which was the problem with the way things previously were. Crucially, all visitor attractions on the Wirral Peninsula can still be found via the Wirral Peninsula heirarchy, irrespective of the cermeonial county. So, it all looks good like this, even if the cat structure is a little complex. Now all that needs doing is the same thing with all of the other Wirral subcategories. This is a lot of work. So, I won't be doing it tonight, but feel free to continue in a similar vein with some of the others if you so desire. Also, I took a shortcut with "Beaches of Wirral" which contains 180 images of beaches which at first glance all appear to be in the Metropolitan Borough. So I did not (yet) rename the cat to "...the metropolitan borough...", I just the changed info at the top of it which specifies the scope of the cat as I did not immediately fancy recatting 180 images. But, I think the other big categories to split out are "Buildings in Wirral" and "Public footpaths on the Wirral Peninsula", which both contain several hundred images. I won't proceed with something that drastic just yet though, until there's further input that this is the correct thing to do, as I wouldn't want to do that much work, if it could all get potentially reverted or altered again. Again, it's probably better to discuss these changes I think! Cheers Benkid77 (talk) 19:12, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Wow! Go to sleep for a few hours, and all that! I'm impressed. I'm off work at the moment, so will have a look at what you've done, and get in and give you a hand. Skinsmoke (talk) 00:23, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi again Skinsmoke, excellent recatting work on the Wirral beach photos. I know you've also been very busy with the Cheshire related categories, so thanks very much for taking the time to sort a good selection of those out! This looks broadly like the way to go for the rest of the Wirral cats. Let's just say as far as I'm concerened I fully support gradually doing something similar with all of the other Wirral cats. Currently, I do have a backlog of images to upload, so I'm going to be doing those next rather than recatting. But thankfully all of my next lot are in Liverpool, so no Wirral cat issues so sort out on them. However, I'll continue to sort the Wirral cats out accordingly as and when I upload further Wirral-related images. Best regards, Benkid77 (talk) 13:08, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, I've finished recatting of the Beaches. I've also done Flora & Fauna (although Woods and Trees still needs doing at some point). So, the Flora & Fauna images are now under Cheshire and Wirral - both category structures preserved - everyone's happy. This new scheme does work well in practice. I'm shortly going to get back to my other ongoing task of transferring Flickr Images of Birkenhead over to commons. However, any new images I place here, I will do it in line with this new scheme. I will post a summary here in a moment for future reference. Cheers Benkid77 (talk) 16:18, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Albeit a few years later...I have realised there has been this discussion about Wirral. I am merely doing my own thing tidying categories but i thought before i get too drawn in to it i should at least put a note on. I was going to recategorise the categories on Wirral Peninsula to Met Borough of Wirral to make in line with the rest of Merseyside and also distinguish between Wirral in Merseyside and Wirral in Cheshire. The Wirral Peninsula page should be a link between the two counties. Does anyone agree/disagree?. One thing for sure is it needs tidying up! Babydoll0409 (talk) 00:19, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi again Babydoll0409,

I agree, yes please go ahead with your plan, something badly needs doing. Thanks for working on it, I agree it's in a bit of mess as it is now - the previous reconstruction plans were never completed and the whole thing was left in a half-completed limbo. It just snowballed into a far bigger job than anyone realised at the time. Alas I just don't have time to sort all the categories out, as I tend to focus on just two things on Commons nowadays namely uploading images and identifying unidentified images. Thanks very much for any possible work on this - I certainly won't object to any sensible major changes. I'm not sure if other users look at the top-level Wirral cats - I don't think many people do. In general, they don't tend get the same level of attention as the Liverpool cats etc.., so could certainly do with someone sorting it out properly. Also the textual guidance in some of the cats can probably be removed now as it could be misleading since the structure was changed last time. Cheers and thanks again for your efforts, Rept0n1x (talk) 09:32, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

The other thing is, the concept of "Wirral, Cheshire" should arguably be dropped altogether. Although towns like Ellesmere Port and Neston were in previous years officially addressed as "South Wirral", this certainly no longer applies, and it could anyway be confused with the "Wirral South" constituency which is now wholly in Merseyside. The only official name for the borough containing the "Cheshire part" of the geographical Wirral Peninsula is "Cheshire West and Chester", so my thinking on this now is that those towns etc.. should just go straight into there. This does mean of course that the concept of a geographical Wirral peninsula would no longer really be recognised on commons, but that's completely correct given that as we previously discussed yesterday, everything here is done according to the local authority boundaries, so it just needs bringing back in line with standard Commons conventions used across the whole UK. (you might still get people putting things from the Cheshire part of wirral into categories named just "Wirral", but a good way to prevent that is to rename all of the cats specifically to "xyz in the Metropolitan Borough of Wirral" etc..) That's my current thinking on it anyway, but I'll just let you get on with what you think is best.. Cheers, Rept0n1x (talk) 09:48, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Ah thanks for the input. I agree with what you say - although on the Wirral Peninsula page it could be a link between both counties, there can't be any objection as this is a geographical peninsula. Babydoll0409 (talk) 11:37, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

OK sounds good, Cheers, Rept0n1x (talk) 11:38, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I noticed 'Foroa' returning a category (Village Greens in Wirral Peninsula). For me this can be found via the Metropolitan Borough of Wirral Category - or are you looking to re write this page ? Babydoll0409 (talk) 19:54, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Summary of Wirral category schemes

As per the above discussion, this is the currently suggested system for categorising images related to the Wirral Peninsula. Obviously it is not set in stone, is open to debate and there will be exceptions to the rule during the period of transition from the previous system, but this scheme works well enough

Generic form of category name	Suggested Parent categories	Notes
xyz in Wirral	Wirral Peninsula or subcategory thereof	The top level categories covering the whole of the geographical Wirral peninsula. This allows a Wirral hierarchy to be maintained and searched on, regardless of the ceremonial counties. Also useful for objects in Wirral that span across both counties - like The Wirral Way, the B5151 road etc...
xyz in the Metropolitan Borough of Wirral	xyz in Wirral, xyz in Merseyside and Metropolitan Borough of Wirral or subcategory thereof.	Covers that part of Wirral in Merseyside. Allows searching via county of Merseyside hierarchy, in line with usual Wikimedia scheme.
xyz in Wirral, Cheshire	xyz in Wirral, xyz in Cheshire (or xyz in Cheshire West and Chester) and Wirral, Cheshire or subcategory thereof.	Covers that part of Wirral in Cheshire. Allows searching via county of Cheshire hierarchy, in line with usual Wikimedia scheme.

If in the future, users blindly create xyz in Wirral categories without considering these matters, then that's also fine. In that case, any such cat will naturally fit into the above scheme without any alteration, and will temporarily be assumed to cover the whole peninsula. This should be OK, because images should also be categorised according to town or village (which have already been split into the correct counties). Later any such xyz in Wirral cat can easily be split out into the county-specific subcategories as and when needed, to also be attached to the relevant county hierarchies for various objects (Buildings, Churches etc, etc...) Benkid77 (talk) 16:35, 28 November 2009 (UTC)