Category talk:Industries
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Outcome of discussion: this category will be created
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JopkeB (talk) 13:23, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
Cat "Economic sectors"
[edit]@JopkeB: Why did you remove the category "Economic sectors"? I'd like to readd it, it's nearly synonymous to some extent. Prototyperspective (talk) 11:24, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
- Because Category:Economic sectors is not about industries, but about sectors, a much broader concept than industries. It looked like an odd subcategory in Cat:Economic sectors because all the rest is about sectors, so I thought that it could not be right. Why should it be readded?
- Cat:Economic sectors has now a See also for Category:Industries by product. For me that is enough. JopkeB (talk) 16:29, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
- Because industries are sectors. See for example here where it refers to industries as "This sector" (ctrl+F for sector. It had a specific sortkey to distinguish it a bit from the rest of items in that category. I think it really needs to be added and can also give you more sources and quotes if there's an issue with the one I provided. Prototyperspective (talk) 19:32, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
- No, industries are not sectors (neither on the website you gave); an individual industry is part of an economic sector. Put it that way, you might be right about readding it again, but then perhaps make Category:Industries by product a subcategory, not Category:Industries itself?
- Another possibility is to make a new umbrella category for Economic subdivisions, with for instance:
- Category:Economic sectors
- Category:Industries
- Category:Factors of production
- Economic agents (new; see EN-WP): consumers, employees/workers/freelancers, housholds, businesses, employers, government, NGOs, labor unions, etc.
- Category:Market types (economics)
- Category:Products by type
- Questions:
- What do you think about this suggestion?
- Can the English word "subdivision" also be used in another context than geographically/country?
- JopkeB (talk) 03:58, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- Okay, I'll add it to "Industries by product" then. In terms of a new umbrella category and what the given source refers to with sectors more precisely, it may be best to have new categories for Primary industry, Secondary industry, Tertiary industry and Quaternary industry – it's a bit strange that these haven't yet been created. What do you think about creating these? I think you're far more literate in economics and I won't create them. Subcats of "Industries by product" may then be somewhere in the subcats of these broader categories.
- I think a "Economic subdivisions" could be a nice thing to have in addition but it wouldn't be the solution to this issue and probably only few would come across it. I'm not a native English speaker but for sure subdivision can also be used in other contexts and I don't know any other word that would fit better. Prototyperspective (talk) 10:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, User:Prototyperspective, for your reaction.
- What do you mean by Primary industry, Secondary industry, Tertiary industry and Quaternary industry? Do you mean industry as in Industry (manufacturing) or as in Industries? I may be more than average literate in economics, but I am not familiar with this grouping. I only know the economic sectors. And I think a lot of the Industries by product have already been distributed over the sectors; if you see one which is not, please go ahead, but avoid ofcoarse overcategorization. JopkeB (talk) 15:31, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- You don't know what these mean? Just see their WP articles. Primary sector would include cats like Mining and Logging. And just like the WP article, I'm referring to Category:Industries. Prototyperspective (talk) 16:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- That is about the (economic) sector, already in Commons, not about "Primary industry". But looking further, I see a Category:Primary industries in the EN-WP, but only the primary industry, and referring to the primary sector. I would not recommend such an extra layer for Commons. Now Category:Industries by product has 53 subcategories and is more or less clear, people can easily find what they are looking for. When it would be near 200 subcategories, then we could think of such an extra layer. And in Commons there is Category:Industries dealing with natural resources, which is almost the same as Primary industries (and probably for many people a much clearer name than primary industry). JopkeB (talk) 04:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- This really is not this important and I kind of think this is way too much talk about simply adding a category and don't see how you can object to it if you don't even know what primary, secondary, etc sectors refer to. Also it's not about only the primary sector. That there's no categories for secondary etc on ENWP means nothing – just nobody took the time to create these cats. As stated, I won't create these and just proposed you or somebody else creates them. It's not an extra layer in that sense since "Industries by product" would stay exactly as it's now if these are created. Not sure why you'd think a cat like "Primary sector" or "Primary industry" or "Industrial sectors" would fit into "Industries by product" – it just doesn't belong there. It would be subcat(s) in the potential cat "Economic subdivisions" as well as cat "Industries".
- Good find of "Industries dealing with natural resources" – did not know this one. It does not fit into "Industries by product" either though – I changed it to cat "Industries"...to illustrate why: "Forestry" is not "by product" it's "by natural resource". Also maybe there should be a redirect to it from Category:Primary sector and Category:Primary industry, or not?
- Now I also found the cats for the secondary and tertiary sectors: they're at the bottom of Category:Economic sectors. It's not about products so the accurate category would be Category:Industries, not "Industries by product". Prototyperspective (talk) 13:35, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- No, I do know what primary, secondary, etc sectors refer to, I only did not know what "Primary industry" etc. are.
- I will not create any category in EN-WP. And I will not create a Category:Primary industries, nor for secundary or tertiary industries in Commons, because I think they are unnecessary. JopkeB (talk) 15:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- Well I suspected that but then please don't say that you don't. If you read the link it may be clearer but I can also put a quote from there here if that helps In economics, industries are generally classified as primary, secondary, tertiary, and quaternary; secondary industries are further classified as heavy and light. Primary industry This sector of a nation’s economy includes agriculture, forestry, fishing, mining, quarrying, and the extraction of minerals. And as stated, those categories already exist. Prototyperspective (talk) 16:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- Read better before you accuse me of things I did not know (but know now). I asked you about Primary industry, Secondary industry, Tertiary industry and Quaternary industry, not about the sectors. An "industry" is not the same as "sector". And categories about Primary industry etc. do not exist yet on Commons and if it were up to me it would stay that way. JopkeB (talk) 02:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
- Once again, the source I provided (as well as other sources if you do a Web search) makes it clear that those are basically synonymous. You may disagree that they are but then you should state that and not make claims that you then say aren't actually what you meant.
- I'm responding what you write, not what I somehow infer even if orthogonal to what you wrote so I suggest you just state things more clearer and more on-topic so we can have a constructive discussion. As said, these categories exist (and also they're in cat "Economic sectors"). So I think what's left to discuss is whether cats like "Secondary sector of the economy" should get cat "Industries". On ENWP the cat even has "Outline of industry" as main article but cat Industries is only set one layer above through the cat "w:Category:Production and manufacturing". Since no such cat seems to exist on WMC(?) I suggest it's added directly. "Industry" is a perfectly fitting term here, I'll provide a source (this time including a quote) in case that's needed: (Britannica)
- Industry, group of productive enterprises or organizations that produce or supply goods, services, or sources of income. In economics, industries are generally classified as primary, secondary, tertiary, and quaternary; secondary industries are further classified as heavy and light. Prototyperspective (talk) 10:21, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
- No, "Secondary sector of the economy" should NOT get "Industries" as a parent category. Category:Industries is about all sectors, not only the secondary one. I think the category structure of Category:Economic sectors is OK now. JopkeB (talk) 14:04, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
- Read better before you accuse me of things I did not know (but know now). I asked you about Primary industry, Secondary industry, Tertiary industry and Quaternary industry, not about the sectors. An "industry" is not the same as "sector". And categories about Primary industry etc. do not exist yet on Commons and if it were up to me it would stay that way. JopkeB (talk) 02:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
- Well I suspected that but then please don't say that you don't. If you read the link it may be clearer but I can also put a quote from there here if that helps In economics, industries are generally classified as primary, secondary, tertiary, and quaternary; secondary industries are further classified as heavy and light. Primary industry This sector of a nation’s economy includes agriculture, forestry, fishing, mining, quarrying, and the extraction of minerals. And as stated, those categories already exist. Prototyperspective (talk) 16:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- That is about the (economic) sector, already in Commons, not about "Primary industry". But looking further, I see a Category:Primary industries in the EN-WP, but only the primary industry, and referring to the primary sector. I would not recommend such an extra layer for Commons. Now Category:Industries by product has 53 subcategories and is more or less clear, people can easily find what they are looking for. When it would be near 200 subcategories, then we could think of such an extra layer. And in Commons there is Category:Industries dealing with natural resources, which is almost the same as Primary industries (and probably for many people a much clearer name than primary industry). JopkeB (talk) 04:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- You don't know what these mean? Just see their WP articles. Primary sector would include cats like Mining and Logging. And just like the WP article, I'm referring to Category:Industries. Prototyperspective (talk) 16:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- Because industries are sectors. See for example here where it refers to industries as "This sector" (ctrl+F for sector. It had a specific sortkey to distinguish it a bit from the rest of items in that category. I think it really needs to be added and can also give you more sources and quotes if there's an issue with the one I provided. Prototyperspective (talk) 19:32, 6 October 2023 (UTC)