Category talk:Graphic Lab-ch

Wappen

(verschoben von User talk:ARK#Wappen.)

Hallo ARK, falls du dafür etwas Zeit hast kannst du mir vielleicht Aufklärung zuteil werden lassen. Wie sind einander vieleicht noch nicht begegnet, obwohl wir beide recht aktiv sind in den Commons. Deshalb will ich vorausschicken, dass ich viel aufräume, übersichtlicher und wiederauffindbar mache und auch anderen die Werkzeuge dazu anbiete.

Es gibt unübersichtlich viele Wappenzeichner, mit recht unterschiedlichen Vorgangsweisen. Nach meiner Information hat die Schweiz keine eigene Wappenwerkstatt, sodass die Schweizer Heraldiker entweder mit den Deutschen tun, oder in der suisse romande mit dem Projet Blasons. Infolge diese Mangels gibt es auch kein Graphic lab-ch, so dass die Bilder entweder in de oder fr eingeordnet werden, oder sprachneutral in der Oberkategorie. Ohne vernünftiges System.

Hier sehe ich Verbesserungsbedarf ! Ich will das aber nicht allein (und gegen die Anwender) entscheiden, ich suche einen kompetenten Ansprechpartner. Wie dich. Ich bin bereit alles zu machen, sobald es einen Konsens dazu gibt. Du bist doch in Kontakt mit anderen CH-Wappenzeichnern? Sonst wäre es ein Minikonsens nur für uns. Was durchaus ausreichen kann bei genügend Kenntnis der Materie !

Wenn du dazu bereit bist, kann ich meine Vorstellungen an dich herantragen und mit dir abklären. Bis bald ! -- sarang♥사랑 12:23, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

{@Sarang: gut von dir zu hören -- schick mir doch eine Mail! ARK (talk) 17:59, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

ok - aber nicht mehr heute -- sarang♥사랑

When you agree this discu can be continued in English, better at e.g. the Commons:Graphics village pump - otherwise it can be held in e.g. the Wikipedia:WikiProjekt Wappen, the Wikipedia Diskussion:WikiProjekt Wappen (where we met earlier).

In my opinion it is unsatisfing that Swiss coa drawers are not held together - somewhow. There are users "organized" within the Spanish THV, the French Projet and the German Wappenwerkstatt, or they are unified in the Graphic Lab by national Wikipedia resp. the national CoA Labs.

Switzerland has no real national Wikipedia, more it participates on the de:Wp, fr:Wp and it:Wp. But that does not forbide a Swiss-"national" Grapic lab ! Especially a CoA Lab-ch. It seems better than to be spread everywhere, and it will fit very well into the system I am now creating for that use.

It can be distinguished between four groups of coa drawers:

1. the (by me) so-called "organized" ones, e.g. THV and the others
2. users confessing to a national Graphic Lab, their work will get an iconed box
3. the individualists, categorized to a national Graphic Lab but without such a box
4. people working for themselfes, completely uncategorized.

I am pleading to keep the users (Swiss, but not only them) from the fourth group into the third one; then it will be much better to find who in Switzerland is contributing to coa. When users want to join the second group an icon can be designed. And in case an "organisation" is wished no problem will be.

An unsatisfying solution found Delta-9: he assimilates to the Projet Blasons, drew his coas with the gradients falsifying the colors, and he used a very own palette (it seemed necessary to create Tincture/drawΔ9 for him) with partly his own names, as "gueules" for "gules".

Another question arises about the tinctures. Currently are there AG, NW and one for CH (besides of Delta-9, for GV). Do all the regions outside AG and NW belong to CH?

Can you agree so far, Rudolf ? -- sarang♥사랑 03:52, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

For continuing, I need to know which Swiss coa drawers exist, i.e. users who made a number of coats, the limit can be e.g. 12 from which a user can be called so.

When usernames are in the table, at conversion, SVGcheck or cleanup they become automtically categorized - depending on the description in the table, first to third group (see above), at the users decision.

I see several advantages:

• a more unique view of converted coa
• the categorization as SVG-ckecked, or raster
• different categorization, e.g. by tool, by user, by national lab

When all now existing and future coas follow this sytem, much more can be seen at a simple view.

Now my questions to you:

1. do you think that it will be better than now ?
2. do you think that it can be realized somewhen?
3. do you agree for yourself to be categorized, in any group (see above) 3, 2 or 1 ?
4. do you know about other (alive) Swiss coa drawers, and are you in any contact with them (that they can be invited to that discu) ?
5. do you have own ideas that can be followed, will you contribute to that task (if spare time) ?
6. are you interested in the technicals of the realization ?

may be that's enough for the moment -- sarang♥사랑 10:11, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

@ARK: the redirect D9 to the palette is now estabished -- sarang♥사랑 16:44, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

@ARK: BTW, may I suggest that you take always an indention of ":" while I take "::" - this will give a good contrast without coming always more and more to the rigcht side.

Brainstorming: I am searching a one-letter abbreviaton for "ch"; but the letters s (sv/wi), c (conf), h (helv), e (eidg) are not any more disponible. Do you have an idea?? -- sarang♥사랑 17:23, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, @Sarang: To start with the easy bit: Switzerland has one well-specified and widely used heraldic palette for use in the RGB colour space, which is the Farbkarte Wappen im Kanton Aargau [PDF], known around these parts as Tinctures (Aargau). The highly respected Stiftung Schweizer Wappen und Fahnen (Foundation for Swiss Coats of Arms and Flags, now sadly being liquidated) mostly sticks to this palette for all of its coats of arms throughout the country. I've been using and promoting this policy on Commons for a while, and it looks like the German-speaking heraldry workshop is ow getting behind the palette as the consensus choice for all of Switzerland.

The Canton of Nidwalden sports a heraldically impeccable logo, and the heraldic colour palette issued by its State Archives is an equally fine piece of work, but I can't see it going any further on Commons. I've already applied it to all of the canton's twelve municipal coats of arms. Given the canton's comparatively low cultural profile in Switzerland, there doesn't seem to be a lot of potential for further adoption, especially as the palette isn't even intended for civic heraldry in the first place.

The Tinctures (Switzerland) palette has dubious legitimacy, as it isn't a published specification to begin with: it is merely a set of colour values lifted from a PDF file issued by the Swiss Ministry of Defence]. Largely, it has also failed to gain much traction in actual use beyond its original association with the set of 26 cantonal arms.

As for your project: Could you define what a "National CoA Lab" is? I don't find the concept self-explanatory, and I'm frankly still struggling to derive a coherent idea from your presentation. Does such a Lab exist yet? I notice that c:Category:CoA Lab-de lists more than a thousand arms. The commonality between these arms appears to be that they all include an ad for the German-speaking heraldry workshop. Why should I think of this category as a "Lab", let alone a "national" one, given that there are hundreds of Austrian and Swiss arms listed, in addition to the German ones? ARK (talk) 21:58, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Rudolf​ To reply with the easiest bit: I made one more lonesome decision, best seems to me the uppercase "H" as explained at CoA Lab. It is now estabished in scripts and templates and first tests with Aliman5040 had been successful; the categories Valid SVG created with Inkscape:CoA-AL and CoA Lab-ch:Aliman are created. I took Aliman to the Swiss lab, it seems to me better than the Spanish one; but it's always possible to change it, or to create another user key for him to the CoA Lab-es.

What is a "National CoA Lab" ? What is a nation, in the usage of wikipedia ? It is everything else than easy to answer it. de:Wp comprises the TLDs de, at and ch (the so called DACH nations); but fanatics created own intra-German wikipedias for e.g. Boarisch or Plattdüütsch, and feed them with articles translatet to these idioms.

Neither to deal with nor to contribute to these curiosities, ir seems suficiently satisfied by the facts to use an own Swiss Graphic Lab. Currently it will held no images, and the only topic-subcat is CoA Lab-ch - but it will get all the coa images drawn by Swiss contributors.

More detailled: CoA Lab-ch is not a category for coas of Swiss objects, it is for coas drawn by Swiss coa drawers (in most cases but not necessarily of Swiss object).

This leads to the difficulty to define Swiss coa drawers. It is not dependent on the passport of a user, it s more about his intentions. Therefore I will classify Aliman to be a Swiss coa drawer, caused by his wikimedia work. By this reason, I am asking for users which are candidates for that classification !

CoA drawing users with their UserIds inserted into the cleanup script and into the Module:IgenCoa will be auomatically treated, a substantial help simplifying the outstanding work of conversion and validation.

I am working on these tools, they will soon be generally available -- sarang♥사랑 08:48, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Your more difficult questions: I came to this mess when I tried to get a better overview. The CoA Lab-de I would call a bad example ! I did a lot of work with the CoA Lab-fr which is now much better structured, with 11 still alive contributors and 24 who ceased their work. There are more French coa drawers, and only a small part of the known users got yet their images converted and validated.

May be that a time will come when it becomes senseful to create a CoA Lab-at, at least nothing speaks against that.

Tinctures: When some years ago I had been asked to create a Template:Tincture it seemed a mere technical thing;

to me as the template editor it still is, but for others it is also a political and heraldic problem — I cannot solve it.

The earlier mentioned "four groups of coa drawers": how would you see yourself – just as a coa drawer accidently in Switzerland, or do you incline to the Swiss coa lab ?

And how should users be treaed that cannot anymore be asked ? Currently Delta-9 is in the French lab, but Aliman is in the new swiss one. In some cases it is really difficult to diffuse; but without diffusion, it will be a great mess without any overview. Another set of categories diffuse by the tools instead of by nation. -- sarang♥사랑 09:38, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

For heraldic artists hailing from Switzerland, you might want to look at Sa-se, Gerhard Bräunlich, and Taktaal. Sa-se is notable for having been the first person, I believe, to oppose methodically the Delta-9 system of French-style glossy arms, at first by posting "matte" alternatives to Delta-9's initial batch of glossy cantonal arms, then by setting out to create non-glossy municipal arms as replacements for the previously existing glossy ones. Gerhard Bräunlich did the whole set of Zürich's municipal arms after Die Gemeindewappen des Kantons Zürich. Taktaal is currently active and works in Gerhard Bräunlich's Eastern Switzerland style.

Among the current crew on the German-speaking heraldry forum, Fränsmer stands out as the artist who, while not a Swiss national, has been most persistent about drawing Swiss coats of arms.

Delta-9 should definitely be listed among the Swiss heraldic artists, as he was an influential figure in the early years of SVG heraldry, however wrong-headed he was about the glossy escutcheons. I don't see why he couldn't be listed in both places, though.

What to do about artists who cannot be contacted? My immediate reaction would be to assume that artists of any sort would welcome the recognition that comes form being listed in a Who's Who type of directory, so the opt-in requirement would seem to be superfluous. However, there might be a Commons policy mandating an opt-in for user listings. If so, this policy should be followed, as well as cited as a governing principle in the project documentation. ARK (talk) 11:44, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

In Category talk:CoA Lab-ch is now a table with some users; they all are linked and inserted and have their categories.​

But I shall not maintain all their coa, it's many hundreds. And esp. these of Gerhard need maintenance, they are all in a maintenance category because of a meanwhile deprecated template. Also they are not yet converted.-- sarang♥사랑 15:26, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Sarang! Switzerland's municipal arms don't number in the hundreds: there are thousands of them. According to the latest figures, Switzerland has 2'145 municipalities. This number is down by more than a thousand since Expo 64, almost sixty years ago, when the most recent display of all the country's municipal flags went up in one single location. Going through all of those obviously would not be a weekend project. ARK (talk) 10:20, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Another disciple of Delta-9's: Aiwe. ARK (talk) 10:43, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Bernina provided the coats of arms in SVG format of "207 municipalities, 16 former municipalities, 33 sub-districts" in the canton of Graubünden. In the Coats of arms of municipalities of the canton of Graubünden Commons category, Bernina's uploads are easily spotted by their old-school "web-safe colours" look, e.g. Rhäzüns (the colours are not all technically "web safe", however). Bernina contributed the arms in November and December 2006, and then left Wikipedia in March 2007. ARK (talk) 15:42, 18 December 2022 (UTC)