Category talk:Give way signs in the United Kingdom
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Oppose - The idea of renaming this to "Yield signs in the United Kingdom" is the pointless creation of a neologism that is unfamiliar to readers in the UK, who (given the category's function) might well be expected to be its main users.
- The idea of tying together categories for related sign functions is a reasonable one. I have no problem with "Give way signs in the UK" being a sub-category of "Yield signs by country", if that's what the relevant category is called. Now can someone please direct me to the relevant MediaWiki bug here that limits us to naming sub- and super-categories as lexically-derived versions of each other? There is no such limitation - MediaWiki pagenames are independent and part of the point of categorization is that it allows us to name the cats anything we might wish. This invented need for matching names is a pure invention.
- The stated reason of "worldwide unification" sounds like someone is trying to found a religion. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:45, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- Didn't you propose to create categories like "Vorfahrt gewähren signs in Germany", "Dej přednost v jízdě signs in the Czech Republic", "Ceda el Paso signs in Spain" or "Уступите дорогу signs in Russia"? The reason why Commons is in English is above all unification and international intelligibility, not a regard for such British users who an established US term consider as an "unfamiliar neologism" (or conversely). No Media-Wiki bug restrain an useful unification of synonymic terms and systematic category trees. --ŠJů (talk) 18:58, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
Oppose Just leave Category:Yield signs in the United Kingdom as a redirect to Category:Give way signs in the United Kingdom both parties are satisfied. (Personally I have no issues with non English category names redirecting to English category names so would not object to Category:Vorfahrtsschildern in Deutschland especially if it helps German speakers categorise their contributions quickly and easily.) What ever happens though Category:Give way signs in the United Kingdom should remain as that is the category that people expect to find to categorise the objects in question into. Railwayfan2005 (talk) 19:14, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- I also support that there should exist category redirects from synonymic English common nouns - especially for English-language countries where is used a synonym different from the term used in category system. Because some British user doesn't understand US English (as you think) or conversely, we should help. But unification and orderliness of category tree is more important facilitation of quick, intuitive and easy categorization. Non-English common terms is better to treat through the description and search functions, rather than to create milions of redirects. --ŠJů (talk) 19:35, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- The primary question to be asked is weather the "Yield signs" or the "Give way signs" is the best international top level name and gives the best coverage of the English speaking community. Personally, I feel that the "give way" is the most clear in a multi language context. Once we are clear on that, we need particularisations, generally for the UK as with railway stations, licenses, parking lots, organisations, ... But we have to start first with a "world level" solution. And obviously, the more a category is consistent on all its levels and branches, the less errors are occurring. --Foroa (talk) 17:33, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- This isn't a question about Category:Yield signs or Category:Yield signs by country, it's a question about Category:Give way signs in the United Kingdom. There is no reason at all (this is rather my point) that Category:Give way signs in the United Kingdom can't be a sub-cat of Category:Yield signs by country. It is a mistake to take a reasonable general approach that "Yield signs" is the most useful single expression for international use, but then to force that onto individual national categories, no matter what their local practice is. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:57, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- As I stated above, there are several exceptions, but we should first to have the best possible world level name. If the best possible name is give way signs, then this discussion serves no purpose. --Foroa (talk) 18:18, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- You left out the possibility that none of this two terms is generally better than the second one. Simply, one of them is (or can be) chosen as the top level name. This discussion is about the question whether names of subcategories should be conform with their main categories. Why yes, why not. The question what name should be used at the world level would be a different problem. --ŠJů (talk) 19:54, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- As I stated above, there are several exceptions, so no reason to forbid this one at the country level. --Foroa (talk) 19:59, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- Thus, we should differentiate all English-language countries as "Give way countries" or "Yield countries"? And what with other countries? --ŠJů (talk) 22:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- I have been told several times that this is not the subject of the discussion. --Foroa (talk) 05:18, 28 June 2011 (UTC):
- This is the main subject of this discussion, whether names of country subcategories should be unified and harmonized – or differentiated and modified by local terminology of separate countries. Outside this discussion is the question what name should be used as the main topic name – the main name for the category tree is given for now. We discuss why just this one subcategory should be excepted and why not also other subcategories. --ŠJů (talk) 07:38, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- As stated, once we are clear about the root name, we might need particularisations if unavoidable, as for the UK as with railway/train stations, licenses, parking lots, organisations, ... We cannot force the whole world into one single "English". --Foroa (talk) 07:44, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- But such approach make unclear which variant of English should be used for non-English-language countries. Shouldn't we use their original local terms, slavishly word-by-word translated to English, instead of the chosen universal name? Should we research and differentiate which of them are more similar to the UK variant and which to the US variant or to none of this two? Didn't you mean "we cannot force Britain into the US English and conversely" instead of "We cannot force the whole world..."? Non-English world should be "forced into one single English"? --ŠJů (talk) 08:09, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Start with slavish translation. Then improve things if the resulting translation is clumsy or silly. Vorfahrtsschildern appears to literally translate as Right of Way signs so perhaps this should actually be the parent category for this branch of the tree. Then you can quite happily have Yield signs in the United States as a child of Right of Way signs in the Unites States, and Give Way signs in the UK as a child of Right of Way signs in the UK.Railwayfan2005 (talk) 22:11, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- But such approach make unclear which variant of English should be used for non-English-language countries. Shouldn't we use their original local terms, slavishly word-by-word translated to English, instead of the chosen universal name? Should we research and differentiate which of them are more similar to the UK variant and which to the US variant or to none of this two? Didn't you mean "we cannot force Britain into the US English and conversely" instead of "We cannot force the whole world..."? Non-English world should be "forced into one single English"? --ŠJů (talk) 08:09, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- As stated, once we are clear about the root name, we might need particularisations if unavoidable, as for the UK as with railway/train stations, licenses, parking lots, organisations, ... We cannot force the whole world into one single "English". --Foroa (talk) 07:44, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- This is the main subject of this discussion, whether names of country subcategories should be unified and harmonized – or differentiated and modified by local terminology of separate countries. Outside this discussion is the question what name should be used as the main topic name – the main name for the category tree is given for now. We discuss why just this one subcategory should be excepted and why not also other subcategories. --ŠJů (talk) 07:38, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- I have been told several times that this is not the subject of the discussion. --Foroa (talk) 05:18, 28 June 2011 (UTC):
- Thus, we should differentiate all English-language countries as "Give way countries" or "Yield countries"? And what with other countries? --ŠJů (talk) 22:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- As I stated above, there are several exceptions, so no reason to forbid this one at the country level. --Foroa (talk) 19:59, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- You left out the possibility that none of this two terms is generally better than the second one. Simply, one of them is (or can be) chosen as the top level name. This discussion is about the question whether names of subcategories should be conform with their main categories. Why yes, why not. The question what name should be used at the world level would be a different problem. --ŠJů (talk) 19:54, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- As I stated above, there are several exceptions, but we should first to have the best possible world level name. If the best possible name is give way signs, then this discussion serves no purpose. --Foroa (talk) 18:18, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- This isn't a question about Category:Yield signs or Category:Yield signs by country, it's a question about Category:Give way signs in the United Kingdom. There is no reason at all (this is rather my point) that Category:Give way signs in the United Kingdom can't be a sub-cat of Category:Yield signs by country. It is a mistake to take a reasonable general approach that "Yield signs" is the most useful single expression for international use, but then to force that onto individual national categories, no matter what their local practice is. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:57, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- The primary question to be asked is weather the "Yield signs" or the "Give way signs" is the best international top level name and gives the best coverage of the English speaking community. Personally, I feel that the "give way" is the most clear in a multi language context. Once we are clear on that, we need particularisations, generally for the UK as with railway stations, licenses, parking lots, organisations, ... But we have to start first with a "world level" solution. And obviously, the more a category is consistent on all its levels and branches, the less errors are occurring. --Foroa (talk) 17:33, 26 June 2011 (UTC)