Category talk:Churches in the Netherlands

Seeing that this category is getting large, are there any objections against creating categories "by province" (like Churches in Drenthe) and then sorting the photos among those? Any other suggestions for sorting? I'll go ahead if there's no reply :)

Thanks for your input. Deadstar 09:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorting churches by province is fine. However, if you find several pictures of the same church, you can also create a category for it, especially when you can find a matching Wikipedia article. Example: Category:Cathedral of Saint Martin, Utrecht, a category I have just created. --Juiced lemon 13:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

For the Cathedral of Saint Martin - I (being Dutch and all) didn't know what church this was. However, I looked it up and found it was the famous Dom church (Category:Utrecht Dom church in Category:Churches in Utrecht (city)) - Just not known as "Cathedral of Saint Martin" (or it's Dutch equivalent). (But perhaps "Utrecht Dom church" should be changed to "Dom Church, Utrecht" for clarity purposes). Deadstar 08:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

We've got the same problem in Category:Churches in Belgium that contains now 1250 or so images. As it is a huge work to split them up in cats, nobody seems really concerned with the province level (except for geographic municipality organisation) and nobody seems interested in the added complexity of adding an intermediate province level (Except for the Walloon churches that use Walloon names). And even if we did add a province level, within a couple of months, the province level will be getting too large, and one can start it all over again.

Personally, I favor for each church a series of pictures that I put in a "churches in ..." cat (click on the top right box) in Category:Churches in Belgium). Moreover, I put the most representative picture of a series in the cat "buildings in ..." and "Churches in Belgium" cats, so if you search in the cat or the image list, you can always see if there is a church picture for that town.

I dont like "saint-Peter church in ..." as this makes the naming incoherent (some start with "churches in ...", others e.g. "Saint-Peters church" which makes the list very unclear.

After improvement of the cat by adding various jump and cat indexes, I think that we can live with it, even if it goes up to a couple of thousands of images. If they only could improve the sort method (and the naming convention of the picture files), it would be almost perfect. --Foroa 16:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea to start sorting these pictures by province. Some individual churches can have their own cats, of course. How about the naming conventions for such cats? Are the names to be translated into English? (Cathedral of Saint Martin) Or are the Dutch names to be kept? Fransvannes 20:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

According to Commons:Language policy, the names for Commons categories have to be translated into English. Such translation is sometimes very hard, so it's easier to find the matching article (or red link) in the English Wikipedia, or to search the name through the Web. You can let a message on my talk page if you need help for a particular church. --Juiced lemon 21:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

@Frans: gewoon de NL naam nemen als het maar een lokale kerk is... hoogstens eens wat internationaal bekende kathedralen of zo kan je eens vertalen. Denk er eens over na hoe je zou googlen naar een kerk in een Nederlands dorp: de engelse naam vind je waarschijnlijk nergens terug voor de naam van het gebouw zelf. Wat voor type gebouw en zo het is, dat vertaal men natuurlijk wel gewoon in het Engels he. Ohja, na die gebruiker uitgeperste lemon van hierboven moet je niet teveel luisteren. Die typ is een constant probleem, je moet maar eens het meldbord voor moderatoren hier op commons en aanverwante pagina's bekijken... wekelijks smijt diene typ de helft van commons overhoop, en de een na de andere gebruiker zit met de handen in het haar door diene typ zijn lompe categorisaties. Oh ja, die taalregeltjes waarnaar hij hierboven verwijst: die is er helemaal niet voor lokale attracties en zo. Straffer nog, meneer zit zelf die policy te editten om in zijn eigen plaatje te passen. Volg dus maar gewoon je eigen Hollandse/Nederlandse logica er in. ;-) --LimoWreck 20:33, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Even in the English WP most churches in the Netherlands can be found under their Dutch names. The churches themselves also use Dutch, when introducting themselves in English. this one is an exception (Old Church in Amsterdam). Its counterpart in Delft uses Dutch. That's one Old Church versus one Oude Kerk. The English Wikipedia uses English for the one in Amsterdam as well. And now? I also hope that Juiced lemon can provide me with the translations of the names of the Hooglandse Kerk (in Leiden) and the Der Aa-kerk (in Groningen).

By the way, almost all names of Italian churches over here are in... Italian! (see e.g. Category:Churches_in_Italy). And, according to Commons:Language policy, the categories of the churches should have an English name, but the articles should be in Dutch (building = place = native). That's lovely.

For me there are three possibilities now: 1) ignore the rules, 2) modify them, 3) refrain from creating cats for individual churches (that's to be done by the specialists, who understand the rules and/or know how to translate Hooglandse Kerk). I choose 3 for now. The sorting by province can start anyway. Fransvannes 08:51, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that there should be a realistic commons policy for category names that are end leaves of the category tree; in most non-English countries, there are many non-translated local names for their churches. You might as well try to translate Taj Mahal. A standard prefix followed by the local name, such as ""Church of Leiden (Hooglandse kerk)" might be a compromise. You'll find many buildings with proper names that, when translated, lose their sense: Oudekerk equals not old church as a majority of the churches is quite old. --Foroa 09:37, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I had a look at what pictures we have. There is no need to translate any of the names of the churches (as far as I can see) as they all deal with not-internationally-important churches. Also they are mostly churches in relatively small places like Andijk (4), Borsele (7), Borne (8)(to name a few). I noticed that categories have already been created for Groningen, Friesland and Utrecht, so I'll go ahead and sort the small places in there & create the other provinces. Deadstar 10:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

@Foroa: Would "Church of Leiden (Hooglandse kerk)" mean that other churches in Leiden will be "Church of Leiden (Pieterskerk)", "Church of Leiden (Marekerk)" and so on? I would say that "Church of Leiden" means that there is just one church of Leiden. Which is not the case.

Re the Old Church: of course, oude kerk just means old church. But Oude Kerk, with capitals, is a proper name, in places which have a newer church too (churches which are not necessarily "new"). Old Church (also with capitals, I guess) is not a bad translation in itself. Proper names do not always have sense: they are just names. The real problem is that some proper names (e.g. Oude Kerk) are translatable, but generally are not translated, and others are hardly or not translatable (e.g. Hooglandse Kerk), and therefore are never translated.

@Deadstar: I'll join you. Fransvannes 10:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

@Fransvannes: :) thank you Deadstar 11:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

@Fransvannes. Personally, I find that in most average towns, all churches can be grouped in "Churches in ...". Such a subcat can handle 5 to 10 churches and say up to 100 photo's. So the basic rules is fine to me in most cases. I see two exceptions to that:

• there is only one single church, so it should become "church of ..." which is fine to me. But while creating a subcat for it, you might as well add the name as it provides additional info. I don't like the alternative which uses the church name, such as Saint-Peterskerk (location) as this jeapordizes the list which is by default sorted by location. Have a look in the Category:Churches in Belgium subcats and you will understand. So in my case, the first part of the cat is standard, the second with additional information is the local name.
• there is a very famous church which my need many proto's. I would prefer the same "church/basilic in location (name)" convention. As far as I know, this is not a formal commons standard, and even if it is, to me, it is a mess as you have various methods of making up a name (Saint Peters church Rome). Look in the church lists of any country: it is always a mess.

To recapitulate my position on the church cat names:

• always the same order:

1. Churches in/church of/Basilic of/Cathedral of/
2. Location
3. (Name) optional when providing additional information in whatever is most logical (english, local language, famous name)

Especially the last parameter allows to merge english naming needs with local naming needs in stead of having non applied rules and the many variations.

In the mean time, if you use "churches in ..." and "churches of ...", you remain safe for the thunder of the common Gods. --Foroa 12:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The names of the cats for entire cities or provinces are not the problem (Category:Churches in Leiden is fine). The problem remains with the individual building cats. Most places with a very famous church have minor churches as well. The exceptions 1 and 2 do not apply there. What would you propose for, for instance, Leiden? There we have at least the Hooglandse kerk (which already has its own cat, under its Dutch name, Category:Hooglandse Kerk), the Pieterskerk and the Marekerk. Neither of them is the Church of Leiden. I would say Category:Pieterskerk (Leiden) and Category:Marekerk for these two. OK? Fransvannes 13:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

It is all depending what you want to achieve. If you want to have all the available church related cats in Category:Churches in South Holland, I would suggest to follow the "rules" or a variation thereoff. If you are categorising the local churches only underneath "Churches in Leiden", I would call it a local leaf and take the names that suit me best. Personally, I would take the most polyvalent approach and name them ":category:Church of Leiden (Marekerk)" (untranslatable I guess), ":category:Church of Leiden (Pieterskerk), in which case you can connect them with "churches in South Holland" if you want.

I have been thinking that by using "St" in stead of Sint or Saint, we could have a better multi-lingual solution, but I don't know for sure if this is used on the English or French side. --Foroa 14:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

@Frans: persoonlijk zie ik de naam van een kerk haast als een eigennaam. Tuurlijk, het is een samenstelling. En tuurlijk, zelfs in het Nederlands zal je voor eenzelfde kerk meerdere namen vinden: een naam van een heilige heeft vaak een versie of vier in het Nederlands, en dan nog een versie in het latijn, en nog een in de oorspronkelijke taal, en nog wat spellingsvarianten, en soms nog de keuze tussen Sint of Heilige. Maar tenzij het een kathedraal is in een toeristisch bekende stad, vind ik het nogal onpraktisch om te vertalen. Net zoals Deadstar hierboven (om 10:36) zegt.... maar dan eerder uit praktische overwegen: de NL-talige naam wordt gebruikt zowel:

• In de taal van de bevolking terplaatse
• Alle literatuur zal hoofdzakelijk in de lokale taal zijn: gebruikt dus ook die naam.
• Het opzoeken naar externe referenties online levert haast uitsluitend echt succes op wanneer je de oorspronkelijke taal gebruikt.
• Dat het voor commonsgebruikers niet duidelijk zou zijn wat bedoeld is, is een drogreden lijkt me. Je moet maar eens proberen een Spaanse, Franse of Duitse (of voor de uitdaging misschien een scandinavische, of beter nog een slavische) stad/dorp nemen op commons. Ook al zit je in eerste instantie in een vreemde taal, na wat rondklikken ben je wel aan die woordjes die -kerk of sint betekenen uit... We moeten niet veronderstellen dat commons gebruikers oerdom zijn ;-) Let op: het beste is natuurlijk in de description wel in een of meer internationale talen een uitleg, evt met vertaling er bij zetten. Oh ja, probeer dan eens op internet meer info te vinden over een monument in een klein dorp in het buitenland... eerst in de lokale taal, en dan in het Engels. Dan weet ik het alvast wel dat ik de lokale taal in eerste instantie verkies.

Nu ja.... dit is maar mijn POV natuurlijk. Wees allen zo vrij om van mening te verschillen. Uitgezonderd dat vermoeiend uitgeperst zuur fruit van hieronder dat natuurlijk, maar daarmee overleggen is hopeloos gebleken (een ervaring die de meesten van ons helaas al hebben moeten ondervinden samen met tientallen onderen op commons). Veel kerkplezier in Nederland. --LimoWreck 22:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Translation of church names in English

Example: Pieterskerk, church in Leiden.

Saint, St or St.

Part of building name. See w:Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (categories)#Abbreviations: to expand or not to expand?.

I prefer Saint, because that avoids an uncertain choice between St and St.. --Juiced lemon 18:55, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Building name

1. Church of Saint Peter
2. Saint Peter's Church

According to Saint Peter, the form #2 seams more popular: St. Peter's Basilica. --Juiced lemon 18:55, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation

The custom disambiguation method is to add a suffix to the building name.

Suffix (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places)):

1. “Leiden”
2. “, Leiden”
3. “of Leiden”

According to St. Peter's, the form #2 “, Leiden” is more popular. --Juiced lemon 18:55, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Proposed translations

Saint Peter's Church, Leiden. First page found by Google with this search string. --Juiced lemon 18:55, 30 July 2007 (UTC)