File talk:Standard of Matúš Čák Trenčianský.svg

Reason that explains "inaccuracies" of the flag includes inaccuracies.

"Who is "Louis V."??? A fantasy king?" It reffered to Wencelaus III. (Ladislav V.) but not sure why it was written as "Louis V." in english so i corrected description.

"Stephen V of Hungary (1270-72) already used the same coat of arms:..." Those are just images of seals that includes doublecross, not Standart of Matúš čák. This standard of Matúš čák reffers to territory of modern day Slovakia that was under controll of Wencelaus III. and under direct rule of matúš čák. at battle of rozhanovce, Matuš čák and his allies from modern day Slovakia used flag very simmilar to this standard as their symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rozgony#/media/File:Rozgony_Battle.jpg (image is from Chronicon Pictum)

"This is the picture when Máté Csák use this flag, he was a Hungarian magnate, it is not surprising that he used the Hungarian flag himself. Even is the same picture we can see exactly the same symbol (double cross+trimount) on the body of the Hungarian king. King Charles I fought a lot for the Hungarian throne, he emphasized his connection to the royal Hungarian Arpad family by materline line, that is why his coat of arms included the Arpad striped. His son Louis used again the same double cross coat of arms as previous Arpad kings:..."

It was not just hungarian flag or symbol. It was also symbol of parts of upper hungary (modern day slovakia) which Matúš čák ruled. Doublecross was symbol of duchy of Nitra and it was already present around area of modern day Slovakia and Moravia before arrival of Hungarians (magyars) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Velka_Morava_sperky_4.jpg (Great moravia jewlery that was found in mikulčice and some of the rings already include doublecross)

(person who wrote that reason was clearly hungarian(magyar) so i have to explain this) He was hungarian magnate but that doesnt mean we has ethnically hungarian (magyar). There is no proof of him being either ethnic hungarian(magyar). He himself was part of natio hungarica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natio_Hungarica : "Natio Hungarica ('Hungarian nation') is a Latin phrase used as a medieval and early modern era geographic, institutional and juridico-political category in Kingdom of Hungary without any ethnic connotation. The medieval Natio Hungarica consisted only the members of the Hungarian Parliament, which was composed of the nobility, Roman Catholic clergy, and a limited number of enfranchised burghers (regardless of their real ethnicity and mother tongue)."

Later he mentions Louis I. and Belo IV. so i present you paintings of those kings on which doublecross is separate from stripes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_I_of_Hungary#/media/File:Louis_I_(Chronica_Hungarorum).jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:B%C3%A9la_IV_(Chronica_Hungarorum).jpg later he mentions that same book (Chronicon Pictum) is including flag similar to this standard. its good to mention that Chronicon Pictum was published in 1358. And since Matúš čák died on 1321, it is possible that his flag was popularized by Matúš čák which could be why we saw it so many times in this book. Dh623 (talk) 20:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi Dh623,

1.

Do you have any modern reliable academic sources which show that photoshopped SVG flag based on the same flag of Mate Csak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_III_Csák? Wikipedia articles should base on academic sources, not our personal fantasy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Attribution + https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research

Image is from Chronicon Pictum: File:Rozgony Battle.jpg In this battle of Rozgony image we cannot see any flag ot Mate Csak.

Coat of arms of king Charles I of Hungary: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikibooks/hu/b/ba/Károly_Róbert_pecsétjének_másolata_%281332%29_2.jpg Similar as other coat of arms of another Hungarian kings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Hungary

That is the Chronicon Pictum with historian analysis, page 211 is about the battle image: https://vilagbiztonsag.hu/keptar/albums/userpics/10009/kalti_mark_kepes_kronikaja.pdf

We can clearly see the Hungarian king has the standard Hungarian coat of arms on his body, and the fallen flag is same in the ground, which is in the hand of a fallen soldier of the king. The fallen flag is the king flag not the flag of Mate Csak. In the background we can see the another coat of arms of Anjou kings, it was common to use more coat of arms separately, here we can see the Arpad and double cross coat of arms in an Anjou fountain from Visegrad: https://www.orszagjaro.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/nemzeti-muzeum-05.jpg

Morover the Chronicon Pictum clearly say the fallen flag is the royal flag, and the fallen soldier is the soldier of the king: "Gyürke was the king’s standard-bearer, and when he was killed and the royal standard fell, the king fought under the standard of the crusaders."

So how can be that the flag of Mate Csak if the text of the chronicle and the image of the chronicle clearly say that is the flag of the king?

2.

Of course that the Hungarian flag (double cross+trimount) was the symbol of upper Hungary, as it was the symbol of the entire country not just the symbol to north regions and other Hungarian kings had that symbol not only Wencelaus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Hungary#Historical_flags + https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Hungary

This is quite funny, when Slovaks claim that the Hungarian flag (double cross+trimount) was the symbol only for upper Hungary, which is the area of today Slovakia, perhaps people in 1300 had a time machine that they knew exactly how will looks the borders of Slovakia 600 years later and made a different flag for it? In the old Hungarian coat of arms we can clearly see that symbol was used for the entire Hungary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:I._Nagy_Lajos_király_(1342-1382)_második_kettős_felségpecsétjének_hátlapja_(1366-1382).jpg Slovak graphic artist Ladislav Čisárik used the coat of arms of king Louis of Hungary as base for the modern Slovak coat of arms File:Coat of arms of Slovakia.svg

I know nationalist Slovaks say Hungary should not use their coat of arms because it represented only north Hungary :) what a joke

By the way the Csak land was just a small part of today Slovakia, and Charles defeated more Hungarian lords (like Aba lords) in that battle: File:Oligarch domains 1301 1310.png

By the way Wenceslaus was king only until 1305, battle of Rozgony was in 1312 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hungarian_monarchs

3.

That is out of topic: What is the business with the flag of the ethnicity of Mate Csak? So you say a Hungarian nobleman from 1300 was not a Hungarian, perhaps he was a Chinese? I can see the Slovak nationalist effort to make every Hungarian persons to Slovak who lived ever in the area which is today Slovakia, however Slovakia is a modern 20th century country.

We know about this romantic nationalist Slovak stories: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_III_Csák#Legacy_in_the_Slovak_romantic_movement (like they want to make Slovak persons from Frantz Liszt, Andras Hadik, Moric Benyovszky... same when Romanian nationalist want make Romanian persons from Herman Oberth, Johny Weismuller, king Saint Stephen of Hungary, King Matthias of Hungary, Pal Kinizsi, etc... just because they lived in the area which was given to Romania in the 20th century)

Old sources originated Csak family from Hungarian conquerors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Csák_(genus)

4.

That is again out of topic "Doublecross was symbol of duchy of Nitra" . What is the business with Mate Csak or any Hungarian flag in 1300 with a symbol which was allegedly 500 years earlier? The double cross came from Byzantine empire to Hungary by king Bela III who was the heir of empire. Christian cross is in every flag: Denmark, England, Sweden, Norway...etc

Please consult with Titus Kolník Slovak historian/archeologist who say: "no archaeological finds have confirmed the presence of a double cross in Central Europe during the Great Moravian period or the immediately following period. The oldest double cross in present-day Slovakia dates back to the 11th century. Moreover the exception of depictions on Byzantine coins, the double cross did not appear anywhere in mural iconography, in plastic form, or as a solitary object before the middle of the 10th century. The double cross legend of Cyril and Methodius is a fiction: "that myths have more power than history".

https://matica.sk/byzantske-korene-statneho-znaku-sr/

What is the business with this image with the flag of Mate Csak? File:Velka Morava sperky 4.jpg No atribution, no museum, no sources. No description regarding that ring item.

The file name is the name of the exhibition.

The same uploader user mention here “Moravian jewellery” but “Avar items”, and they looks really as Avar items, which means that exhibition had many kind of items: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Velka_Morava_sperky_2.jpg

Title of the exhibition: "Great Moravia and the beginnings of Christianity" https://www.abczech.cz/Archeologie-Velke-Moravy-P7036831.html

In Hungary there is also "Arpad era exhibitions" with many other related items, the photo maker user just captured a photo from that exhebition where mass of Christian items were showed together, but we cannot see the attribution of the items one by one. OrionNimrod (talk) 12:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)