File talk:Flag of Finland Air force squadrons without squadron emblem.svg

 

 

 

 

Slow-motion edit war

There appears to be a slow-motion edit war taking place over the description of this file. I've protected the file from editing pending an outcome of a discussion here on this talk page. I realize that I've probably made someone unhappy since the file may now be frozen in a state that they disagree with. I'll ask any interested editor who wishes the file to be changed to present reasoned arguments here, on this talk page. After presenting your argument, please allow time for the other participants to respond. If you are able to come to a mutually agreeable result, I'll unprotect the file.

If, after discussion, you are still unable to come to an agreement (and I am serious about this, please attempt to resolve this first with discussion here on this talk page), please propose an edit to this protected page using {{Edit protected}}. Since one or more parties may feel I took sides by freezing the file in a state they disagree with, I'll allow another admin to evaluate any protected edit request. Please be calm and civil in your discussion.

To any admin fulfilling a protected edit request, you can find some background on this issue at Commons:Administrators'_noticeboard/User_problems/Archive_55#File:Flag_of_Finland_Air_force_squadrons_without_squadron_emblem.svg. —RP88 (talk) 16:13, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Proposed change

OK, let's make a use of this file. Thanks to @RP88: for an advice. This is how we are going to do it. There is all ready for the creation of the File:Ilmavoimien teknillinen koulun lippu.svg, and I am very grateful to @Caselius: for his help in finding the references and translation. So, the .svg file is done, now with the permission of the administrators I am ready to upload it as a new version of this file and appropriately rename it after. As a result, not existing flag will be replaced with existing, will be no more need to delete anything, and the real flag will be ready to be used in the Finnish Air Force articles. Sincerely, --Kwasura (talk) 22:28, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

You are, of course, free to upload another file under some other name, I certainly have no objections. Would you mind if I ask you a few questions to clarify your position? It sounds like you would like to have this file renamed. Is that correct? If so, what name do you propose for this file? Something like "Template for Finland Air Force squadron flags (without squadron emblem).svg"? Would you like the file summary changed in any way? —RP88 (talk) 22:45, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

No, no, no... This is not the point. Renaming is a secondary thing here, first we need to have something to rename. There is no "Flag of Finland Air force squadrons" in Finland and they are certainly not the "squadron emblem". And there is no need creating no "Template for Finland Air force squadron flags (without squadron emblem)" for the same reason. What we really need is a proper, official, correct and referenced flag. And it is ready to be uploaded as a new version on this file. And only then the flag could be renamed (and the summary changed) appropriately. --Kwasura (talk) 23:05, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

If you feel you can create a flag that is a "proper, official, correct and referenced flag" I certainly am not going to prevent you from doing so! It is possible to do that without touching this file at all. Just upload your new flag under a new file name. After you've done that feel free to make a proposal here to correct anything you think is misleading about this file's name or summary. I don't think any of the recent contributors to the file history here are under the impression that this file is an actual flag of Finland, it's just a template to assist editors in the creation of flags that are actually related to the Finish Air Force, right? —RP88 (talk) 23:17, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

For example, if it is "squadrons" and "squadron emblem" that you object to, would a name like "Template for Finland Air Force related flags.svg" be an acceptable file name? —RP88 (talk) 23:33, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Again, let us talk what we are dealing here with. The Military Flag. THE Military Flag. There is not such thing as "Template for Finland Air Force related flags" or any "template for the military flag", or any kind of "use-me-as-you-like-just-add-some-water-and-sugar" military flag. This is not how the military flag is being created. And not only military. Any flag. We had the USA flag with stars 13 to 50, but never had it with no stars as a "template template to assist editors". Your humble servant is not the Michelangelo, but I took the drawings, the pictures, the meter and created my own "templates" (at least they can be used as such). Note, none of the files then existed were good enough. Some may not even notice the difference, but this is Heraldry we are talking about here, so every detail is important, every mistake is fundamental. Important: Category:Military flags of Finland is not the LEGO. Flags there are all very real. Except one. And I am trying to fix it. Sincerely, --Kwasura (talk) 00:14, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I understand that you do not like this file and that you don't find it useful when creating additional Finland Air Force related flags. if you are personally using a template file of your own construction that you feel is superior to this one, I'd encourage you to upload it. You could even include details in the description of your template that explains why editors should use your template in preference to this one (unless, of course, you think the Finish Air Force flags, while superficially similar, are different enough that no template can accurately depict the details common to all of them).

Nonetheless, please keep in mind that the immediate goal is to find a solution that brings an end to the edit war over this file's summary. To do that we need to find a consensus for a name and summary for this file or even deletion if the consensus is that this file is misleading.

As I am sure you are aware, I know nothing about the field of heraldry, so I can't help evaluate this file's accuracy or lack thereof. I am only acting in the role of a moderator here. This is why I'd like you to propose an explicit change to either this file's name, summary, or both. You could even propose making a change similiar to one of your earlier edits that was reverted (although I'd encourage you to instead try to compromise). After you do so, we can wait to see if the other interested editors object, and from there try to find consensus. If they do not reply then eventually you can make a protected edit request and an admin (other than me) will then evaluate the request and if they approve they will make the edit to the file. —RP88 (talk) 01:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I don't like this file. It gave me an inspiration to search for truth. But now it's became obsolete and simply wrong. And it will never be useful to no one anymore. Simple reason why - because there are two (not one) types of the flag being currently used by the FAF components. Have a look to the central element.

1 - Hämeen lennoston lippu - type 1;

2 - Satakunnan lennoston lippu - type 2;

3 - Ilmasotakoulun lippu - type 2.

I modified the files the best I could. Exact shapes and proportions of the badges in the corner are still need to be established, but this is the all information we have about it at the moment.Hope I will put my hand on the technical documentation one day... Now the files I recommend to use are either of these two: or I had access to some good pictures while checking them up.Whoever future developer can simply download and use them as a "template" if needed. Apart from this - Category is not the LEGO box. It needed to store real military flags, not the spare parts for them. --Kwasura (talk) 03:03, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello, I've been trying to find as much information about the Finnish flags for the cleanup of the sections. Based on Finnish Defense Forces unit historic by War Museum of Finland (Puolustusvoimat: Joukko-osastoperinteet), there was only 6 Air Force Unit Flags circa 2007. It has quite detailed descriptions about the flags and has lots of background information as well. I found a thing which makes template flags quite problematic: There is varying flag sizes, however around 2007 there was just one but I am quite certain there has been more varying flag sizes as most flags were put to service in late 50's. According to the book the sizes are the following: Lapin Lennoston lippu 120x142cm, Karjalan Lennoston lippu 120x142cm, Ilmasotakoulun lippu 120x142cm, Lentosotakoulun lippu 120x142cm, Satakunnan lennosto 120x142 & Ilmavoimien teknillisen koulun lippu 80x95cm.

In addition to that all units which don't have flag of their own use the FDF version of the national flag which is named "Finnish Navy ensign" in Commons. I don't have much info about proportions however, if the size of the swastika says the same the flags would have different outcome from the template. I will possibly try to get the second part of the book somehow so we can just add all the flags based on the illustrations portrayed in the book. However it may take until next year because of the Post Office not working and libraries being closed. --Caselius (talk) 10:45, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I am glade @Caselius: could find a time to join me here. He was a great help all along, and I am agree with his statement about the proposed so called "pattern". Photographic evidence also clear about it - there is not a single pattern, but two at least (maybe more), plus the difference in sizes. So my advice would be proceed creating the missing flags and improving existing files until there is no more difference between the real flag and his .svg copy. According to my knowledge there are nine Finnish Air Force component flags in existence, of which some units are currently disbanded, reorganized or reassigned. Here is the list I have. Original designation retained to avoid the confusion.

• Hämeen lennoston lippu - Häme Air Command
• Karjalan lennoston lippu - Karelia Air Command
• Satakunnan lennoston lippu - Satakunta Air Command
• Kuljetuslentolaivuen lippu - Transport Squadron
• Tiedustelulentolaivuen lippu - Reconnaissance Squadron
• Ilmavoimien viestipataljoonan lippu - Air Force Communications Battalion
• Ilmasotakoulun lippu - Military Air School
• Lentosotakoulun lippu - Military Flight School
• Ilmavoimien teknillinen koulun lippu - Air Force Technical School

--Kwasura (talk) 19:08, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Legal disclaimer?

Is the legal disclaimer necessary? Its a non-Nazi swastika. The Finnish Air Force is, as far as I know, not banned in Germany. Luke (talk) 21:03, 6 December 2017 (UTC)