Commons:Deletion requests/Files showing Serbian lands in the 9th century

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  • Add {{delete|reason=Fill in reason for deletion here!|subpage=Files showing Serbian lands in the 9th century|year=2024|month=October|day=01}} to the description page of each file.
  • Notify the uploader(s) with {{subst:idw||Files showing Serbian lands in the 9th century|plural}} ~~~~
  • Add {{Commons:Deletion requests/Files showing Serbian lands in the 9th century}} at the end of today's log.
This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Serbian lands in the 9th century

[edit]

(1)

There's some issue with tracking the history of the original File:Serb lands04.png which was in 2013 renamed "Serb lands in the 9th century (en).png". This map was created by User:PANONIAN on Serbian Wikipedia in or before 2005 (based on Serb_lands02.jpg; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Serb_lands04.png) and moved to Commons in 2006 by User:Electionworld. It has basically two versions (this and this basic type). According to the claims by user Panonian in the linked talk page discussion on English Wikipedia, the file was primarily based on "Istorijski atlas" (1999, publisher Geokarta, location Belgrade). In that atlas the description of the map was, in English, "Serbian lands in 9th-10th century" among other details, showing that the original sourced map itself is a confusing synthesis of different centuries and historical contexts (late 9th en:Petar of Serbia and after 10th century assumed expansion during en:Časlav of Serbia#State borders for which there's no evidence in primary sources and was never well argued and sometimes is omitted in secondary sources because simply there's no evidence in historical sources to know what the borders looked like during his time). It is also confusing that the file on Wikipedia/Commons was titled only mentioning the 9th century (also instead of very late 9th century), although it is misleading mentioning only the 9th century or 9th-10th century, but also only the 10th century because such borders did not exist at the time. Until now nobody could verify the original map, but assume it can be established to have been kinda based on this map (Istorijski atlas, image; from 2005, publ. Geokarta, editor Nebojša Jovanović). The source map is identical to "second type" from 2005, while kinda identical to the "first type" from 2005 (with different western border on river Vrbas; "first type"'s "improved version" is OR/SYNTH as has some unsourced and unexplainable editing). On the link can be also seen two other maps on the left of it, but their borders of Serbia/Serbs are evidently even more exaggerated, claiming for Serbia/Serbs almost whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina (for more issue see en:Bosnia (early medieval), which modern scientific literature treats more as an independent polity), pushing the early medieval Croatia/Croats much westward similar to modern borders, and lands of en:Stari Ras/en:Raška (region) which became Serbian only in the mid-12th century pushing the Bulgarians/Byzantines much eastward. All such borders are not supported in historical sources and generally in scientific literature. It is obvious that this maps were created with pro-Serbian ideological-political narrative in the years of en:Yugoslav wars when such narratives were pushed by the nationalistic propaganda (but something similar could be found even in respective neighbouring sources – so all sources from the same time period should be carefully evaluated and used in comparison to other sources, or better simply avoided, because exist more reliable national sources in the last 10-15 years, international sources in the last 30 years and those published during the period of Socialist Yugoslavia).

Besides that source, user PANONIAN listed a number of other sources, but mostly unreliable links (which are basically showing copies of the same map). From the sources, en:Vladimir Ćorović (d. 1941) "Ilustrovana istorija Srba" (supposedly expanded edition of originally unreleased work, considering how it is described it is obviously edited by others, released 2005) has this map for the 10th century (which has different western border on river Vrbas with Croatian border being longer and more eastward, and with different eastern border including Ras); Petrit Imami is not a scientist; en:Sima Ćirković (d. 2009) "Srbi među evropskim narodima" (2004; English edition) has this map for 950 CE (with roughly the same western border at river Vrbas, but different eastern border without Stari Ras which is correct). Hence it seems that the user PANONIAN while creating the "first type" map predominantly based it on the stated original source "Istorijski atlas" (1999-2005), keeping the eastern border including Stari Ras and surrounding land, but putting the border on river Vrbas.

Serbian historians en:Mihailo Dinić, Ilija Sindik, Dragoljub Pavolvić, and en:Svetozar Radojčić wrote the VII chapter "Srpske zemlje u ranofeudalno doba (do XII. Stoljeća)" in Historija naroda Jugoslavije (1953, en:Školska knjiga, Zagreb), showing for the time an elevated level of critical viewpoint and neutrality which would lack in some later Serbian scholars. Correspondingly, the Serbian academic historian and geographer Ilija Sindik was also obligated making maps and for the first section about early medieval Serbia written by Dinić made a map "Srpska država sredinom X. stoljeća" (Serbian state in the middle of the 10th century) looking like this map, with text "Državne granice nisu unesene, jer se ne mogu pouzdano utvrditi" (State borders aren't included, because they cannot be reliably determined), with almost identical position and depiction of the name Srbija/Serbia can be seen below in a good map (File:Balkans925.png). Also, relevant for other derivative maps below, according to Sindik this map (with part of border line having "?" marks) is what's looks like "Dukljanska država u drugoj polovici XI. stoljeća" (Dioclean/'Serbian' state in the second half of the 11th century).

Another problem is that there's not only one file, but the fact that the original file/idea was repeatedly copied, and also titled to represent different centuries from 9th to 10th up to 11th century. These are its derivative, COM:Dupe (duplicate) and COM:Redundant (redundant) files also for deletion:

1st type

2nd type

3rd type

4th type

From them were made identical 11th century (?!) derivatives of 10th century derivatives of 9th century original file, also for deletion:

(2)

In addition to that, there exist also other poor and not used files spreading even more extreme fringe propaganda, also for deletion:

This file was created/uploaded by User:Kbh3rd in 2005. Arguably the worst map of them all, as it has nothing to do at all with the description of Serbian and other borders in the 10th century De Administrando Imperio. As was observed almost 15 years ago ([1]), it is based on an unreliable 2004-2005 source which was not officially published, written by an unauthoritative and almost anonymous author Aleksandar J. Vukosavljević (there's hardly any information about them, but according to Google search it is a en:Greater Serbia propagandist and amateur possibly with fake name, link, link). The map is identical to the map in the source ([2], [3]), with some striking similarities to the 1999-2005 map & user Panonian's map. It is nothing alike the map of other listed source Arnold Toynbee - Constantine Porphyrogenitus And His World Compressed (1973, link).

These files were created/uploaded by User:SerbianPaleontologist in 2017. Like the previous map, are pure wishful thinking, not even "science fiction" - a total fantasy. The maps are evidently identical to the map by Aleksandar J. Vukosavljević's unreliable source which is listed. Some files have additional original research editing (if cannot be called even as a "research" because nothing in other sources supports such visual projection). They are not based on any other listed international and national source, some of which are even from 19th century (with outdate issues). The lists of sources are again used only as a ploy to make it seem as if the author evaluated various sources before making the map - sometimes not even listing the actual source the maps were based on, making it difficult for other editors to verify its source and (in)accuracy.

Conclusion:

There already exist other better maps on Commons based on international scientific literature for the respective time period (9-10th century), although some of them have other inaccuracies but not of such a scale and most importantly not of Serbian borders. These are File:Europe 814.svg and its derivative named File:Balkans in the 9th century.png, because the borders didn't change much throught the 9th century but even 10th century, is a map created by editors from a 19th century original which has many inaccuracies, with corrections based on relevant and reliable scientific literature; File:Balkans850.png; File:Map of the Balkans in the 10th century.png (arguably most accurate and satisfying for all viewpoints); File:Balkans925.png; File:Central and Eastern Europe around 950 AD.png (has a distorted perspective of space).

In short, the maps requested for deletion in each case were made using only 1 source with dubious reliability and neutrality (often instead of attributing one source listed bunch of other unrelated references and links to make it seem they are based on more sources or editor's evaluation of various sources or same/very similar borders can be found elsewhere, but do not). Files with such an idea and sheer number of derivative copies make a confusing mess with misleading representation and impressions about the history. Also, all maps have no release or source given for the underpinning map of Europe and program used which must be verifiable per COM:PRP as could be violating copyrights.

I am requesting deletion of all these files (and related derivative/duplicates of the same file/idea; with the exception of one "2nd type" version file - File:Serb lands in the 10th century (en).png - because is identical to the sourced map from an atlas and useful as an example of exaggerated depiction of borders, but needs editing of the description and having a detailed notification of having specific factual inaccuracies so it would be more careful/less used and copied around). Some of these files are not used anywhere on Wikipedia. These are files of poor quality, based on unreliables sources, original research-synthesis, mistitled, for which subject and time period already exist better maps. Their educational purpose is seriously twarted and misleading because are based on fringe theorization and nationalistic propaganda which was not in good faith. There were made too many duplicate and redundant derivatives of the original file, spreading further the propagandist representation of history, and with sheer quantity making it seem to have weight. Making and having such files for spreading further such propagandist visual viewpoint is ultimately not in good faith/constructive/neutral and hence not of educational purpose.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 01:11, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Keep. While I understand your frustration, most of these images appear to be COM:INUSE on one or more articles. Omphalographer (talk) 04:44, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but they are misused and overused on other Wikipedia editions (articles poorly edited/watched anyway). I or anyone else could go there now and replace them with better images, then almost none would be INUSE. Currently not in use on any article:
@Miki Filigranski: Current usages must be replaced before we can delete here. —holly {chat} 21:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Delete. Map is syntesis of many sources, and there are no sources for medieval Serbia till Vrbas river. Between Vrbas and river Bosnia is Vrbas county, which is part of latter Slavonia, which was made as succesor to Pannonian Croatia. Also, more than half of Croatian Imota county is in the map part of Zahumlje, which was only eastern of Neretva river.
Why are southern adriatic sclavinias referenced as Serbian? DAI is half of the 10. century, and it doesn't include Diocletia.
Upper Neretva should be part of Zahumlje, or Croatia (in DAI Croatia is north of Zahumlje).
Serbia should be only till Srebrenica, and around Upper Bosnia there should be "little country" Bosnia. Ras should be part of Bulgaria, etc. --Čeha (talk) 20:06, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: COM:INUSE, deleted 1 that was not in use. --Abzeronow (talk) 19:15, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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