Commons:Deletion requests/File:NosferatuShadow.jpg
a German movie, still copyrighted in Germany (both cinematographers de:Fritz Arno Wagner and de:Günther Krampf died after WW II). It doesn't matter to German copyright law that rhe movie was a copyvio of Dracula. sугсго 09:20, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Delete, not free in country of origin. Regards, -- ChrisiPK (Talk|Contribs) 13:47, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- BTW, this also applies to the other images in Category:Nosferatu. Regards, -- ChrisiPK (Talk|Contribs) 13:52, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Delete I think, ChrisiPK is right. --Berntie (talk) 23:26, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- Comment Can someone show me a source saying that Nosferatu is copyrighted in Germany? Not doubting it, but I couldn't find anything saying who holds the rights.--CyberGhostface (talk) 00:34, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- In Germany, copyright is automatically held by the authors (in case of a film: director, script writer, score composer, etc.) and it cannot be transferred. Thus, it'll be hard to find any sources saying that it is still copyrighted -- but it nonetheless is. --Berntie (talk) 01:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- Are we just assuming that it's copyrighted, then, since there's nothing to say otherwise? And correct me if I'm wrong, but did the director, scriptwriter,etc even retain the copyright after the film was ordered to be destroyed by the courts?--CyberGhostface (talk) 03:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not a lawyer, but to the best of my knowledge there is no way that the copyright can be taken away from the author [clarification: in Germany] (even if the work itself was a copyvio, and even if the material was ordered destroyed). --Berntie (talk) 03:56, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- Are we just assuming that it's copyrighted, then, since there's nothing to say otherwise? And correct me if I'm wrong, but did the director, scriptwriter,etc even retain the copyright after the film was ordered to be destroyed by the courts?--CyberGhostface (talk) 03:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- In Germany, copyright is automatically held by the authors (in case of a film: director, script writer, score composer, etc.) and it cannot be transferred. Thus, it'll be hard to find any sources saying that it is still copyrighted -- but it nonetheless is. --Berntie (talk) 01:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- I agree. This website has it listed as public domain. Another suggesting that it is public domain. Another that believes it i PD. I think we need a source that suggests that there is someone in Germany that actually holds the copyright to this film. Otherwise, I would oppose any deletion. Bignole (talk) 16:12, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure that those sources talk about the copyright status in the US. But we are talking about the copyright status in Germany. --Berntie (talk) 01:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- Hence the last sentence in my statement, which said that we need a source that says it is copyrighted in Germany, because everyone over here in the USA believes that it is public domain. If it walks like a duck, sounds like duck and looks like a duck...it must be a duck. Now, unless there is evidence to show that it is actually a goose (i.e. copyrighted in Germany still), this assumption that is must be has no actual integrity in an argument. I could argue what a lot of things "must be", but without proof that is neither here nor there. We have tons of evidence that suggests that just about everyone over here believes the film is in the public domain. I've yet to see any evidence that suggests that the film is still copyrighted in Germany. You made the comment: "there is no way that the copyright can be taken away from the author..." - I give you the example of Night of the Living Dead, which is a US film that is in the public domain. The creator, George Romero, is still alive. Bignole (talk) 12:41, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- See below --Berntie (talk) 14:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Hence the last sentence in my statement, which said that we need a source that says it is copyrighted in Germany, because everyone over here in the USA believes that it is public domain. If it walks like a duck, sounds like duck and looks like a duck...it must be a duck. Now, unless there is evidence to show that it is actually a goose (i.e. copyrighted in Germany still), this assumption that is must be has no actual integrity in an argument. I could argue what a lot of things "must be", but without proof that is neither here nor there. We have tons of evidence that suggests that just about everyone over here believes the film is in the public domain. I've yet to see any evidence that suggests that the film is still copyrighted in Germany. You made the comment: "there is no way that the copyright can be taken away from the author..." - I give you the example of Night of the Living Dead, which is a US film that is in the public domain. The creator, George Romero, is still alive. Bignole (talk) 12:41, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure that those sources talk about the copyright status in the US. But we are talking about the copyright status in Germany. --Berntie (talk) 01:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- Keep. When the US entered the GATT/Uruguay Rounds, it was specified that copyrights before 1923 in the US were null and void. Nosferatu was never copyrighted in the US by Prana Film, and was published in Germany before January 1, 1923. What happens in Germany is an entirely different subject, but Wikipedia is a US corporation with their servers run out of the US. It is NOT beholden to German copyright laws within its own borders. The GATT agreement is likely available at your local library. This is the reason why there are multiple versions of Nosferatu available on DVD in this US on a number of legitimate labels and that Transit Film can do nothing about it. Thephotoplayer (talk) 19:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC) 17:44, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- It is not sufficient that the film is PD in the US. The rules say: "Wikimedia Commons accepts only media [...] that are in the public domain in at least the United States and in the source country of the work." --Berntie (talk) 01:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Nosferatu is indeed in the public domain in the U.S, this is very clear. It is however still protected by copyright in Germany, this is also very clear: because all the important individual contributors to the creation of a work, like a film (including cinematographers, scriptwriters etc., not just the director), need to be dead for at least 70 years, which is not the case here. As Berntie quotes, "Wikimedia Commons accepts only media [...] that are in the public domain in at least the United States and in the source country of the work" - therefore delete on Commons, BUT the image (as well as any other image from this movie) can be hosted at en.wikipedia.org where media that are in the public domain in the United States only are accepted. Gestumblindi (talk) 22:23, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- That's not entirely true. George Romero is not dead, yet Night of the Living Dead IS in the public domain because of a snafu that arose with the copyright. That could very well have happened with Nosferatu...so again, we're back to the "where is the evidence that says this is still copyrighted by someone/some company"? Bignole (talk) 12:41, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, Night of the Living Dead may be in the public domain in the US. That doesn't mean it's in the public domain in Germany. In my statement "to the best of my knowledge there is no way that the copyright can be taken away from the author" I was talking about the situation in Germany. In the US this is certainly possible. German Urheberrecht and American copyright are fundamentally different.
- As for any "evidence", I can't show you a source saying that Nosferatu is still copyrighted over here. (Nonetheless, I'm still sure it is.) I don't know if this has any implications concerning the Commons' uploading rules. But Wikipedia guidelines certainly don't count here. --Berntie (talk) 14:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Maybe it helps, if I quote the law: "The copyright is not alienable [except for inheritance after the creator's death]" --Berntie (talk) 17:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- As for any "evidence", I can't show you a source saying that Nosferatu is still copyrighted over here. (Nonetheless, I'm still sure it is.) I don't know if this has any implications concerning the Commons' uploading rules. But Wikipedia guidelines certainly don't count here. --Berntie (talk) 14:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- The fact that Nosferatu is still copyrighted in Germany is self-evident as its creators aren't all dead for 70 years yet and the copyright can't be transferred to a company in Germany. (By the way, article 94 of the German copyright law, "The producer of a film shall have the exclusive right to reproduce, distribute and use for public presentation or broadcasting ... " only for 50 years is describing only rights of use which don't affect the Urheberrecht of the creators resp. their heirs). Copyright for works by joint creators (like movies) expires in Germany only after the last of the creators is dead for 70 years; something like "Night of the Living Dead" falling into public domain couldn't happen in Germany because copyright works very differently from the U.S. there; it was automatic long before the U.S. introduced this, bound to the creator(s) and non-transferable - only the rights of use (Nutzungsrechte) can be transferred, but not the original Urheberrecht. It is not needed to state "evidence" for every single work that is still copyright-protected in Germany; it's the default assumption as long as the creators aren't dead for 70 years, and if a work is nevertheless in the public domain in Germany due to some exceptional circumstances, this would have to be shown here. Gestumblindi (talk) 20:19, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Deleted. Per information of the legal department of the Friedrich-Wilhelm-Murnau-Stiftung (foundation) the movie is still not public domain in Germany. Since Commons requires a file to be free both in United States AND the country of origin the images have to be deleted from Commons until 1.1.2020. Cecil (talk) 09:39, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't get why this film still is again here on Commons. Yes, it's in the public domain in the United States, but not in Germany, its country of origin, therefore not acceptable on Commons. This was made clear in the previous deletion discussion: Deleted. Per information of the legal department of the Friedrich-Wilhelm-Murnau-Stiftung (foundation) the movie is still not public domain in Germany. Since Commons requires a file to be free both in United States AND the country of origin the images have to be deleted from Commons until 1.1.2020. Cecil (talk) 09:39, 12 March 2009 (UTC) Nothing has changed since then. Nevertheless, a few months after deletion, someone transferred it to Commons again from the English Wikipedia (the comment on the image description page is still pertaining to en-wiki, "This image was here [i.e. English WP], then transferred to Wikimedia Commons..." It seems that the English-language Wikipedia accepts images that aren't free in their country of origin, as long as they're free in the US (I disagree with this policy, as the English Wikipedia is an international project, too), but Commons doesn't, as should be well known. Gestumblindi (talk) 01:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I don't know that this image is still copyrighted in Germany. Please delete it. --Alagos (talk) 04:10, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Are there any films which are in the public domain by age in Germany? --84.61.172.89 09:35, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Deleted. Per previous deletion request. ChrisiPK (Talk|Contribs) 09:38, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
