Commons:Deletion requests/File:Nalot niemczyzny 1910 1931.jpg

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File:Nalot_niemczyzny_1910_1931.jpg

per original speedy deletion request [1] presence violates Polish copyright law. Speedy was removed because it "may" be under PD-Poland. But that rationale applies to photographs (of unknown authors), not posters Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:47, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Keep I am the admin who removed the speedy request, as it is clearly PD-Poland. This is a photograph of a lightning bolt, with additional text overlayed on it. It was then turned into a poster. The text itself isn't copyrightable, so one has to look at the actual underlying elements that are; that being the photograph of the lightning bolt. As per {{PD-Poland}}, this was published at least in 1931, some 63 years before the 1994 date which puts photographs in PD in Poland, and I can see no evidence it was ever published with a clear copyright notice, as per the notations required by PD-Poland. This means that the image is clearly in the public domain in Poland. russavia (talk) 09:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, I *guess* that could be a photograph, a very very bad one, of a lightning bolt, though it appears to be drawn to me - any evidence for the claim that this is a photograph? Regardless, the forming of the poster from its component parts would make this clearly an original work and hence subject to copyright law. It appears to come from this book [2], which was published in 1939 (in Poznan), in 1941 (in London, Glasgow and Edinburgh) [3], in 1943 (abridged version, in Warsaw, as an underground publication) and subsequently. In fact it was published in 1990 by PAX [4], which as a major publisher copyrights its publications.

this was published at least in 1931, some 63 years before the 1994 date which puts photographs in PD in Poland - I think Russavia has this backwards. The law states that IF it was published at some point before 1994 with a copyright notice, 1931, 1939, or 1990, or whatever, THEN it's NOT PD in Poland. Not that IF it was published before 1994 THEN it's PD (which wouldn't make sense, from point of view of what copyright law is supposed to do).

The author of the work died in 1966, as indicated in the original speedy deletion request [5], which means the work will not be in public domain until 70 years after, or 2036.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:16, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Also, I believe the onus is on the uploader (who's been notified) to provide the source where it was published WITHOUT the copyright notice, per "To uploader: Please provide where and when the image was first published. "

Btw, if this lax interpretation of pd-Poland is true, then there's a lot of files I've got stored up for uploading.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:19, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Keep. As stated, the poster with the lightning was taken from "Source http://www.halat.pl/drang_nach_osten.html ". It can be found at numerous other Polish (and some German) websites [6] [7] [8], too. It is often described as "a sudden drop in % of Germans in the cities - 1910 vs. 1931" or similar, and WITHOUT a copyright notice. On the other hand, a "Drang nach Osten" drawing (Radek Volunteer Marek might consider it a photo), which is often depicted next to the lightning poster, is attributed here resp. here to "w:pl:Wacław Boratyński (1908 - 1939), in: J. Kisielewski, "Ziemia gromadzi prochy". So it seems that our Polish friends might have misinterpreted these remarks, leading to a false claim that the lightning poster is used in Kisielewski's book. And even if it was used in the book (page? scan?), why should Kisielewski be the creator of the poster? One hardly designs such a poster to hide it inside a book where a simple table would do. --Matthead (talk) 13:57, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

The fact that copyright law is being violated elsewhere on the web is not really a good argument to do the same on commons.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:27, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Additional comment Józef Kisielewski does not appear to be the author of the photo/poster? It may have appeared in his book "Ziemia Gromadzi Prochy", but that appears to have been published in Poznan in 1939, some 8 years after the poster was supposedly used for propaganda purposes in Poland. If this was indeed first published as a propaganda poster in the early 1930s, again, I can see no evidence that it was ever published with a clear copyright notice. Very few posters in those days had copyright notices. Also, if this was published as a poster in the early 1930s, then Kisielewski has not published it, but has reprinted it. The same thing does with the book published in 1990. The pertinent part of PD-Poland is "(or published for the first time in Poland or simultaneously in Poland and abroad)" But as per Matthead above, if Wacław Boratyński is the author, he died in 1939, which also makes this PD-old, as he has been dead now for 71 years. Either way, PD-poland or PD-old, it is in the public domain. I have changed the licence tag to PD-old to reflect this. russavia (talk) 00:01, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

What are you two basing the assertion that Kisielewski is not the author of the poster on (apparently now, not a photograph)? Seems like an assumption of convenience. There has also been no evidence presented that it was published in "early 1930s" - if so, when exactly? You just seem to be making things up. Links? Evidence? Anything?

The Boratynski connection seems to be that some webpages out there on the internets also include a different image by Boratysnki along with this one, as in the link provided by Matthead, like here [9] - note that the image attributed to Boratynski is a different one. If you want to upload the actual Boratynski image [10] to Commons, be my guest.

The dispute over the border - Spór o granicę - File:Boratynski Drang nach Osten 1939.jpg

Zu Befehl, mein Dateiführer (See image to the right. As stated above, this Boratynski image seems to be used in Kisielewski's book) --Matthead (talk) 14:43, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

P.S.:"the actual Boratynski image", as linked by Vol. Marek to zwangsgrenzen.jpg, which is a German image describing the post-Versailles German-Polish "forced frontiers", showing a big black arrow pointing to the short border section that was not changed. Volunteer Marek seems to be a little lost here, or did Boratynski work for Germans? BTW: In these Polish webpages, the descriptions are written like headlines above images, not below. Reminds of the (reverse) Polish notation on some pocket calculators. Hope this helps.

Regarding this (strange) claim: The pertinent part of PD-Poland is "(or published for the first time in Poland or simultaneously in Poland and abroad)" - please notice the parentheses. What's missing from that... "excerpt"? The full statement is "all photographs by Polish photographers (or published for the first time in Poland or simultaneously)". So no, the pertinent part in this particular case is "all photographs by Polish photographers". The "or published for the first time in Poland or simultaneously" would only apply if the author was not a "Polish photographer". Honestly, I'm surprised that a commons admin, who's supposed to manage the images here - which requires a basic grasp of copyright law - would make such a mistake.

Also, I'm not sure how exactly this works on commons, but continuously changing the license of an image, just to keep it from getting deleted, in order to present a moving target during a deletion discussion, as was done here, [11] and here seems a bit non-kosher. Please pick one so that we can discuss it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:42, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

My comment on the pertinent part, was in relation to your claim that publication of a book in 1990 would mean that the image is copyrighted. i.e. the pertinent part is that it was first published in Poland before 1994, and without a clear copyright notice. Re-publication of an image which could already be in PD, under PD-Poland, does not create new copyright over said image. That was the clear point that was being made, and it is basic copyright law. This link states "Po prawej: nagły spadek % Niemców w miastach - 1910 vs 1931); Rys. W. Boratyński (poległ w 1939 r.) w: J. Kisielewski, "Ziemia gromadzi prochy""; indicating Boratynski is the author. Boratynski died in 1939, 71 years ago. Can a Polish speaker please confirm this?

Additionally, if people would like to take a step back for a moment. Has anyone obtained a copy of the 1939 edition of Ziemia gromadzi prochy, and had a look to see if the photograph is credited to anyone. It does seem odd that Kisielewski, who is a writer, would also be credited as being a photographer and/or artist (depending on whether the image is a photograph or a drawing). It is also odd, as per Matthead, that an image would be created simply for a book, when as he notes, tables would be better suited. Whilst Kisiel is obviously the author of the text in his book, is he also the author of the images that are contained therein? That fact still needs to be established. At the present time, there is some indication of Borat being the author, not Kisiel. That's my opinion on the matter at the present time given the information we thus far have. russavia (talk) 06:14, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

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Kept. Jcb (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2011 (UTC)