Commons:Deletion requests/File:Coat of arms of the Folketing of Denmark.svg

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:Coat_of_arms_of_the_Folketing_of_Denmark.svg

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I'm really not sure about the copyright status of this image. I removed the image a few months from a SVG here at commons because it is listed at enwp under fair use (which was again reverted) and the pd text states: "Acts, administrative orders, legal decisions and similar official documents are not subject to copyright." So are CoAs official documents? mabdul 23:13, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Coats of arms are official documents when their adoption and/or description is set out in national law. Even if this logo (as it properly is) isn't so set out, it would still be considered part of an official document because it is used by the Danish parliament, making it part of any legislation passed. That's two reasons why the licensing I have applied to it is acceptable. Fry1989 eh? 23:18, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A third reasoning for it being free (some may consider this one a stretch) is that the main focus of it is the 3 Lions and 9 Hearts of the Danish Coat of Arms, which is an ancient design, which would make it PD-Old as well. Even if the text would negate that, it would apply if this logo was created more than 70 years ago (also highly likely). Fry1989 eh? 23:36, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The symbol in question's usage in this PDF is an example of it's usage and being a part of an "official document". That makes it free under the licensing I have used. Fry1989 eh? 23:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note: Commons:Deletion requests/Greenlandic Coat of Arms is related and was linked in Commons:Copyright tags until Fry removed it some hours ago. --Saibo (Δ) 00:22, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is not relevant for several different reasons. Yes I removed it. Why? Because nowhere in that discussion was it actually proven that Danish coats of arms aren't covered. It was claimed so by an anonymous IP, but no link was given. You can not just assume claims like that (which greatly affect files' allowances on Commons) ar true without actual proof. Second, the above reasons I have shown above mean this this file would indeed be covered under two different licensing tags, first PD-DanishGov because it is infact being used as part of "official documents", and also under PD-Old. Fry1989 eh? 00:36, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I just wanted to mention it... nothing more. I do not like it if information vanishes silently. --Saibo (Δ) 01:22, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I know, and I'm not taking it personal. I'm just saying that there was no solid proof that Danish coats of arms are excluded from PD-DanishGOV despite what the IP claimed. Such an interpretation of the clause is in itself contradictory, because as I mentioned above, if the coat of arms is adopted or described in a text, that would fall under an "official document", and would be PD under the law. Fry1989 eh? 02:10, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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  • Quoting from Peter Schønning (2008) Ophavsretsloven med kommentarer, 4th edition, a quite thorough textbook by a leading Danish copyright expert, page 216: "Som offentlige aktstykker kan kun anses skriftlige udfærdigelser, dvs. litterære værker, ..." That is only literary works can be classified as official documents in the context of §9. And from the same book, page 222, regarding part (2) and the contributions that may only be reproduced in connection with the full document and thus aren't public domain: "Dette krav må antages at være opfyldt for alle ikke-skriftlige bidrag, herunder omslagstegninger, fotografier og noder, som på grund af betingelsen om skriftlige udfærdigelser ikke i sig selv kan være offentlige aktstykker." So basically, any non-literary works such as illustrations used in public documents aren't public domain. (There are some exceptions, such as some maps, but nothing that is relevant here.) So {{PD-DenmarkGov}} does not apply here.
    The one argument I can see for this being public domain is that it is so simple that it is ineligible for copyright protection. It is not something I would feel comfortable uploading, but that is neither here nor there. As mentioned above the core elements of this logo — the 3 lions and 9 hearts — is in the public domain by age but this a new drawing of the hearts and lions combined with a few new elements, which would certainly be enough for copyright protection in some jurisdictions, but maybe not in Denmark. The most relevant court ruling, I am aware of, is U1998.946SH, in which the World Wide Fund for Nature's panda-mark was found ineligible for copyright protection and that seems at least as original as this, so maybe {{PD-ineligible}} goes? Peter Alberti (talk) 09:16, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But as I explained, that interpretation is self-contradictory, so it can not be accepted here. You can not exempt illustrations in that manner, because if they are adopted within a text, or their image/design is described within that text, would mean that the coat of arms is part of the text. That means the PD-DenmarkGOV would apply. Fry1989 eh? 19:47, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is no contradiction. If you find a description in text of a logo or coat of arms in an official document, then that description is public domain (in most cases anyway) and you can create your own drawing based on that description and release it under a free license if you wish. That is not what has been done here. When a drawing is used in an official document then that drawing is not part of the text and it therefore doesn't become public domain, so we can't use PD-DenmarkGOV to keep this image. I don't quite follow your argument but even if I did, since your conclusion directly contradicts Peter Schønning's, I think I would have to conclude that he was right and you were wrong, unless you can cite another authority to support your version. Peter Alberti (talk) 20:12, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
COM:COA explains how this is possible. Descriptions of coats of arms are always PD. This is a self-made reproduction. That would also make this PD. Whether you agree with me or Peter Schønning doesn't matter. If a image is described in text, that makes it an intrinsic part of that text. It can not be exempted. Fry1989 eh? 21:04, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  1. what do you mean by self-made reproduction? The original upload log states that it was simply taken from the website.
  2. Can I ask you to reread part (2) of §9 of the copyright act? What it says in simplified terms is that images are not considered as part of the text. Schønning even gives an example of a court ruling that says that the law says so (U1964.776Ø). You will need some very solid references supporting your view to simply declare it invalid and that seems to me to be what you are doing. Please clarify your position if it isn't. Peter Alberti (talk) 15:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, it couldn't have been directly taken from the website, unless the Folketing provides vector files. It may have been inspired by the website (what's called a derivative), but it is clearly a self-made reproduction by a Wikipedia user. Second, I have explained quite clearly how Schønning is wrong. If you won't accept it, that's not my problem. COM:COA is absolutely clear that the description of a coat of arms is always PD. If the description of that coat of arms, it's blazon, is in a text, that makes it PD according to Danish Law as well as Commons rules. Fry1989 eh? 20:02, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: per Pieter Kuiper. No reason to believe that the old symbols and the lettering in this coa are (still) copyrighted. Rosenzweig τ 17:39, 19 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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