Commons:Deletion requests/File:Anti-American mural and St. Sarkis Cathedral, Tehran.JPG
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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.
Per COM:FOP#Iran ~ Rob13Talk 04:12, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Keep It's copyright holder is a legal personality (i.e. Tehran municipality) and the mural has been made during the Iranian Revolution (1979-1980 [1][2]) which means more than 30 years has been passed after its date of public presentation. --Orijentolog (talk) 04:55, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
- First, the sources state that the building was taken over in 1981, not that the mural was created then. Second, what is your evidence that the copyright was transferred to the municipality of Tehran? That seems highly unlikely. This wasn't an official mural by the city; it was likely painted by protesters. ~ Rob13Talk 21:07, 13 January 2017 (UTC)`
- Point was that mural is one of the oldest from the IR period (1979-). Previous sources spoke about murals of ex-US embassy (similar by dating), but this one is from the eastern facade of National Organization for Educational Testing. Regarding precise date: The 'death to the USA' mural on Karim Khan Street in central Tehran that replaces the stars on the US with sculls and its stripes with bomb trajectories is the only one of its kind that has survived throughout the last 25 years of the Islamic Republic (source). Book is published in 2007/2008, so it means mural is from 1983. There are many more sources mentoning this mural, but author(s) is/are unknown. We can find that The well-known Iranian Assyrian artist Hannibal Alkhas (1930-2010), for instance, painted murals throughout the city with his students that explored themes addressing radical issues in anti-imperialism. The iconic mural on the wall of the American embassy is his most famous work. (The original has been covered with the mural seen at right.) (source). Again, its about embassy, not this one. Anyway, its senseless to delete image by assumption its copyrighted. We only know that its 34-years-old, on public building in Tehran municipality and part of government-sponsored mural program (Dabashi:1999:291, Chehabi:2008:3-4). --Orijentolog (talk) 16:02, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
- That all talks about the "Death to the USA" mural, not the "Down with the USA" mural that we have depicted here. I believe they're distinct, if I'm not mistaken, and there are many similar murals in Tehran. A mural being painted as part of a government-sponsored program does not, of course, transfer the copyright to the municipality. As per COM:PRP, significant doubt over an image's status usually leads to deletion. The short 30-year period of copyright only applies if the city owns the mural, and we just have zero evidence of that, which is significant doubt. ~ Rob13Talk 16:20, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
- You're wrong about first one for sure, because they're not distinct: literal translation of Persian "Marg bar Amrika" (مرگ بر آمریکا) is actually "Death to America", but most oftenly its accompanied with less offensive "Down with the USA" English translation. Sources clearly speak about mural in Karim Khan Street, and I sent you precise coordinates at Wikimapia where you can check street name (on the North). There are some scholarly reviews about Tehran's wall art where this specific mural is shown, and none of them mention who is author, so its easy to conclude its not copyrighted (professional book always mention authors). There are many other murals in Tehran and by your assumption all can be deleted, despite there's no any information about authors and copyright. On the other hand, we know this wall art programs are being made by amateurs, most oftenly multiply people, sometimes even school kids (see [3][4]). For sure, we're not speaking about modern equivalents of Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel ceiling, but (legal and sponsored) street graffiti. --Orijentolog (talk) 10:05, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
- The "which mural" question is an aside; it's not important beyond how it helps us determine authorship. A lack of known authorship does not imply something isn't copyrighted. There appear to be no concrete rules for unknown authorship, at least in the translations of the copyright law I can find, but the term of copyright in Iran is generally life + 50, so we can assume at least 50 years. ~ Rob13Talk 23:14, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
- You're wrong about first one for sure, because they're not distinct: literal translation of Persian "Marg bar Amrika" (مرگ بر آمریکا) is actually "Death to America", but most oftenly its accompanied with less offensive "Down with the USA" English translation. Sources clearly speak about mural in Karim Khan Street, and I sent you precise coordinates at Wikimapia where you can check street name (on the North). There are some scholarly reviews about Tehran's wall art where this specific mural is shown, and none of them mention who is author, so its easy to conclude its not copyrighted (professional book always mention authors). There are many other murals in Tehran and by your assumption all can be deleted, despite there's no any information about authors and copyright. On the other hand, we know this wall art programs are being made by amateurs, most oftenly multiply people, sometimes even school kids (see [3][4]). For sure, we're not speaking about modern equivalents of Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel ceiling, but (legal and sponsored) street graffiti. --Orijentolog (talk) 10:05, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
- That all talks about the "Death to the USA" mural, not the "Down with the USA" mural that we have depicted here. I believe they're distinct, if I'm not mistaken, and there are many similar murals in Tehran. A mural being painted as part of a government-sponsored program does not, of course, transfer the copyright to the municipality. As per COM:PRP, significant doubt over an image's status usually leads to deletion. The short 30-year period of copyright only applies if the city owns the mural, and we just have zero evidence of that, which is significant doubt. ~ Rob13Talk 16:20, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
- Point was that mural is one of the oldest from the IR period (1979-). Previous sources spoke about murals of ex-US embassy (similar by dating), but this one is from the eastern facade of National Organization for Educational Testing. Regarding precise date: The 'death to the USA' mural on Karim Khan Street in central Tehran that replaces the stars on the US with sculls and its stripes with bomb trajectories is the only one of its kind that has survived throughout the last 25 years of the Islamic Republic (source). Book is published in 2007/2008, so it means mural is from 1983. There are many more sources mentoning this mural, but author(s) is/are unknown. We can find that The well-known Iranian Assyrian artist Hannibal Alkhas (1930-2010), for instance, painted murals throughout the city with his students that explored themes addressing radical issues in anti-imperialism. The iconic mural on the wall of the American embassy is his most famous work. (The original has been covered with the mural seen at right.) (source). Again, its about embassy, not this one. Anyway, its senseless to delete image by assumption its copyrighted. We only know that its 34-years-old, on public building in Tehran municipality and part of government-sponsored mural program (Dabashi:1999:291, Chehabi:2008:3-4). --Orijentolog (talk) 16:02, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
- First, the sources state that the building was taken over in 1981, not that the mural was created then. Second, what is your evidence that the copyright was transferred to the municipality of Tehran? That seems highly unlikely. This wasn't an official mural by the city; it was likely painted by protesters. ~ Rob13Talk 21:07, 13 January 2017 (UTC)`
Deleted: Neither the date of creation nor the author status is known beyond a significant doubt. . Jim . . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 16:31, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
