Commons:Deletion requests/File:10.5cm leFH 16 Geschützwagen auf Vickers Mk VI.2.jpg

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:10.5cm leFH 16 Geschützwagen auf Vickers Mk VI.2.jpg

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This work, apparently taken by a German military photographer in 1941, was uploaded using the two license tags {{PD-BW}} and {{PD-1996}}. PD-1996 says that it is in the public domain in the US because it was in the public domain in its home country on the URAA date (January 1, 1996). I don't think that is correct, because the other license tag used, PD-BW, does not apply.

PD-BW says that the file is part of publicly available service regulations ("Zentrale Dienstvorschrift") of the German Armed Forces (Bundeswehr) and as such in the public domain. None of that applies, even if we disregard that the Bundeswehr (the current German military) did not exist in 1941 and extend the tag to the German military of 1941, this photo is not part of publicly available service regulations, so it is not in the PD because of that.

Someone has now changed the license tag to {{PD-Germany-§134}}. That is a rather special license tag for works "published by a legal entity under public law". Accd. to German law, "legal entities under public law" , emphasis on under public law (de:Juristische Person des öffentlichen Rechts), are basically cities, counties/districts, the German states, the German nation state itself, some churches and some other public bodies. Also, to use this tag, the legal entity under public law in question must be named as a "Herausgeber" in/on the work, and at the same time no personal author must be named. None of this is shown to apply here, so that license tag does not apply.

Some users also like to slap {{PD-EU-no author disclosure}} and similar license tags on any (European) work older than 70 years without a named author, as a sort of catch-all for older works. That there is no author named at whatever internet source the image was taken from, or that we do not know the author, does not mean that the author is "anonymous" or that there was "no author disclosure". You'd have to do a fair amount of research to establish that this is the case. How much is open to debate, but just copying the image from some "tank encyclopedia" website is definitely not enough. Also, German law says that pre-mid 1995 anonymous works are only really anonymous if the author was never publicly disclosed anywhere, not even in a lecture or similar. One cannot prove that, so pre-mid 1995 "anonymous" works from Germany are not suitable for Commons (or de.wp).

And no, the precautionary principle does not mean we have to believe every claim that some work is anonymous unless proven otherwise (in which case some "clawback" is then applied). That's not how it works.

A 1941 photograph is also not old enough to assume that the photo must be in the PD anyway, since the author easily could have lived beyond 1951. There is {{PD-old-assumed}}, but the photo would have to be at least 120 years old for that. We'll have to wait until 2062 for that.

tl;dr: There is not enough information for us to be able to keep this file. It should be deleted per the precautionary principle unless conclusively shown to actually be in the public domain or under a free license. Rosenzweig τ 12:42, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This Pic is obviously one of the series wich have been made by german forces during the redesign of this british equipment made by en:Alfred_Becker#Early_conversions. Pls. compare those.[1] The material ist supposed to be published by the Wehrmacht ca. 1941/1942. There are ten-tousands of Documents with pictures released as de:Dienstvorschriften_der_Wehrmacht and similar. For all of those documents the rights are expired. Best Ｔｏｍ (talk) 20:19, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This photo is not taken from some service regulation (Dienstvorschrift), and that a photo was taken by a German military photographer does not mean that it is automatically in the public domain (like it would be in the US). It is protected while the photographer (= the author for copyright purposes) is alive and for an additional 70 years after the author's death. So unless someone can show that the photographer of this image died no later than 1951, we'll have to assume that it is still protected. --Rosenzweig τ 20:42, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
According to personal rights of a photographer you are absolutely right. Pls. have a second view on the case of published printworks (with Photos) wich are referred with {{PD-Germany-§134}}. (70 years after publshing free). There is also a bunch of ten-tousands of photos with licenses like given in this pic. The problem is (so far you are right) we do not exactly know, from which publcation this picture was taken. Best Ｔｏｍ (talk) 21:02, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be quite confused about copyright. The "bunch of ten-tousands of photos with licenses like given in this pic" were uploaded by a cooperation with the Bundesarchiv, the German Federal Archive, who say they own the rights to these images. Please note that they are not claimed to be in the public domain, but released under a CC license by the Bundesarchiv. And a second look at {{PD-Germany-§134}} did not change anything: The prerequisites for using this tag are not met in this case. Regards --Rosenzweig τ 21:08, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As fare as i understand the licensing as it was before[2] was prettey unreasonable, because a {{PD-BW}} really does not fit. My idea was to fix it more reasonable. Sorrowly the show object was very seldom (only 12 build as non-factory conversion) so that this pictures are hard to find. I scrolled through this[3] found no simimlar object. Well i can not cure failures which have been made before. I can't help any more. Best Ｔｏｍ (talk) 21:42, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. This picture is also published in the book ISBN 1472820266 on Page 121 sorrowly without naming the source. Ｔｏｍ (talk) 11:31, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: per nomination - In any event, it was not PD in 1996, so it will have a USA copyright until 2037. .     Jim . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 15:41, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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