Commons:Requests for comment/Technical needs survey/Confirm mp4 for 2028

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Confirm .mp4 for 2028

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Description of the Problem

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  • Problem description:
The most popular video format is .mp4 ((MPEG-4 Part 14 (Q336316), en:MP4 file format), but unfortunately it is a closed format under patent until 2028. Please confirm that technical and legal plans are in place to begin accepting and playing videos in this format as soon as possible.
  • Proposal type: feature request
  • Proposed solution:
Give legal and technical confirmation to the Commons community that .mp4 files are acceptable for Commons upload from 1 January 2028.
Review previous discussions
  • Phabricator ticket:
  • Further remarks:


Bluerasberry (talk) 01:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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 Info I think this topic is a bit complicated. MP4 is rather a container format. If we want to upload free MP4 files, we have to examine what codecs were used, and when the protection is waived. We have H.264 and HEVC recently; it would take some time until the protection is waived --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 19:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PantheraLeo1359531: What is your opposition? Are you opposed to support for mp4 in general, or to asking the legal question of when all the necessary tech is off patent, or of thinking about this prematurely in 2024 when 2028 is years away? Where is the complexity and why might now not be the time to plan? Bluerasberry (talk) 16:32, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not against the introduction of MP4 as allowed filetype, I just wanted to add this aspect when we come to the implementation :) --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 16:49, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They are pointing out there there is no such thing as one 'mp4' format, that expires at one moment. Supporting mp4, we would have to recognise every codec that can be used inside mp4 and for each of those codecs then decide if the file is allowed or not. We do this for webm as well (where we have an allowlist of codecs), but mp4 is a little bit more complex in that regard as it is used for way more formats than webm is. It's doable however, with enough dedicated support by WMF staff. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 15:33, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TheDJ: Hopefully, with enough good free codecs, we can autoconvert from the unfree ones.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 14:25, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While all this is true, I think when people say MP4, they largely mean H.264, (maybe) H.265 and AAC. Bawolff (talk) 18:08, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Bawolff: Here the response that I want to this proposal: the WMF dev team says, "Wikimedia Commons will fully support mp4 on 1 January 2028". I promise no one will forget. Bluerasberry (talk) 16:18, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Bluerasberry: I doubt that will happen, due to all the underlying codecs that would need to be either free or licensed, per TheDJ above.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 16:48, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jeff G.: Then how about the opposite? The dev team can confirm that there will be no mp4 support in 2028 due to legal reasons, so that we can quit wondering if it can happen. Yes/no are good outcomes to this proposal; perpetual limbo is the problem to resolve. Does that seem reasonable and actionable? Bluerasberry (talk) 18:11, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Bluerasberry: Yes, but also not likely. What they could give is an indication of the % of codecs that could be used in MP4 files which are free or which they have licensed, and which devices encode using those codecs (for fame) or don't (for shame).   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 18:40, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jeff G.:
✓[OK] Yes, great - that is an acceptable project scope. Do that much for now, and then closer to the off-patent date, we can be more sure of what is possible. Thanks for describing this in a measurable way. Bluerasberry (talk) 19:12, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And in 4 years, when the dev team that made that promise have all left for different jobs, their boss left, their bosses boss left, and their entire department was reorganized so it doesn't exist, what then? All I'm saying is that promises that far in the future are usually pretty meaningless. Bawolff (talk) 18:11, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it should also be noted that a lot of the problems with MP4 is political, which is something the commons community can work on right now. Clarifying the moral background of what is and is not acceptable to the commons community and the broader wikimedia community when it comes to formats subject to patents, would do a lot for enabling other groups to work on things like this. Bawolff (talk) 18:13, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I have the impression that many people do not realise the following: MP4 is a container format. It is therefore possible that on 30 December 2027 someone will publish a new codec for audio or video or subtitles and apply for a patent, which will be adopted by MP4 as a valid codec. And it could be that this previously unknown codec is so great that by 2 January 2024, 2% of all videos that someone wants to upload to Commnons are already using this new codec. And one month later it will already be 5% and by the end of the year 30%. So if a decision were to be made to allow MP4 from 2028, it would also have to be filtered against unknown codecs. And it could mean that a large proportion of MP4 videos will not be able to be uploaded after a short time and most people will not understand: "Why, MP4 is allowed?" However, it is also possible that the decision in favour will be made shortly and implemented by 2028, but a large proportion of videos will already be using a new patent-protected codec on the first day of release. Of course, it is possible to either filter out or transcode such videos. However, both would worsen the user experience when uploading, not improve it. The better question might be: "Does WMF want to improve video support at all or stay with the status quo?" I would also like to point out Magnus Manske's Wikiflix, which is also promoted by WMDE and could lead to increased use of videos and thus tie up WMF resources that are then not available for MP4 or similar. C.Suthorn (@Life_is@no-pony.farm - p7.ee/p) (talk) 14:28, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Votes

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