Commons:Deletion requests/File:Walenty Maćkowiak Sejm.jpg

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File:Walenty Maćkowiak Sejm.jpg

This work is in the public domain in the United States because it meets three requirements:

• it was first published before March 1, 1989 without complying with U.S. copyright formalities

There is no evidence that it was published before 1 March 1989. It seems that the photo wasn't published until May 1989. Stefan4 (talk) 10:36, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

•  Comment The line you are quoting come form Template:PD-Polish/en version of the template; however it is not in the main Template:PD-Polish/pl or any other language version. The original text come from {{PD-1996}} which does not say anything about March 1, 1989. The change of the template text was done here by user:Clindberg, who is very familiar with US copyright law. Unfortunately there was no explanation of the change other than edit comment "After 1989 notice did not matter. The rules were different between 1978 and 1989 versus before 1978, but 1989 is the important date for this tag.". I do not see any links to supporting discussions or sources. I do not know what is the significance of that date, but I think the image meets the requirements of {{PD-1996}}. --Jarekt (talk) 12:23, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
  • The rule is that there mustn't be any subsisting copyright. That requires that it was published before 1 March 1989 without US copyright formalities or that it was published before copyright relations were established. Unfortunately for Polish photos, there is always a subsisting copyright if it was first published on 1 March 1989 or later. The requirement about publication before 1 March 1989 also applies to {{PD-1996}}. The wording for {{PD-1996}} needs to be corrected. It should be something like this (although the wording may need to be improved):

This work is in the public domain in the United States because it was first published outside the United States (and not published in the U.S. within 30 days) and it was in the public domain in its home country on the URAA date (January 1, 1996 for most countries) and it satisfies at least one of the points below:

• It was published before copyright relations were established between the United States and the source country of the work,
• It was published before 1978 without a copyright notice,
• It was published before 1 March 1989 without a copyright notice and without a copyright registration within five years since publication, or
• It was published before 1964 without a copyright renewal with the United States Copyright Office.

Also, "published without notice" in the US case means without a notice according to the US copyright notice rules. I don't know whether Poland and the United States both used the same rules for copyright notices. --Stefan4 (talk) 12:40, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok, so the cause of this DR is not that the image does not meet the requirements of the license. It is that {{PD-1996}} (which this license is quoting) is wrong. This might not be a good venue for discussing changes to {{PD-1996}}, but I do not think you can just "correct the wording" of a template and change conditions of when to apply it without checking all the images that use it. The proper way to do it would be to create a new template with a new name and then move all the images from old template to the new one. Unfortunately after many years, we are still moving images with {{PD}} license to other licenses. By the way, in Polish copyright from 1926 and 1952, the "copyright notice" was a (C) on the image, which I have never seen used. Also, under what conditions are photographs published outside US after 1 March 1989 in PD in US? --Jarekt (talk) 18:50, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

This has been discussed a few times at COM:VPC, but the {{PD-1996}} template is so complex that no one dared to try to reword the template. There's also an old discussion about this at Commons talk:Subsisting copyright, where it was suggested that the template should be split up because it's so complex.

Since 1 March 1989, USA hasn't required any copyright formalities, so all Polish photos published on 1 March 1989 or later are protected by copyright in the United States unless they satisfy {{PD-US-unpublished}}.

If the Polish rule was that there must be a © on the photo, then USA and Poland have different rules for copyright notices. USA requires a copyright notice in the image caption, indicia or any similar obvious location, and it needs to contain the sign "©" (or the word "Copyright" or the abbreviation "Copr."), the name of the copyright holder and the year of publication. On the other hand, you suggested that Poland only needs a © sign but no year and no name and with more restrictions on the location on the location of the notice. This means that there could be some photos which have a US-compliant copyright notice but not a Poland-compliant copyright notice, or vice versa. This could lead to a big mess. --Stefan4 (talk) 20:56, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Correction, Polish copyright notice just requires "clear copyright notice on the photograph" ("Utwór, wykonany sposobem fotograficznym lub do fotografii podobnym, jest przedmiotem prawa autorskiego, jeżeli na utworze uwidoczniono wyraźnie zastrzeżenie prawa autorskiego." ) There are no more specific directions. There should be no images that meet both {{PD-US-unpublished}} and {{PD-Polish}} since one requires images to be published and the other to be unpublished. What worries me is that we added {{PD-1996}} to {{PD-Polish}}, because all images which met requirements of {{PD-Polish}} also met requirements of {{PD-1996}}. But then after this change we might have images that met license requirements before the change and did not met them afterwords. --Jarekt (talk) 03:13, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

The US situation is also explained at COM:HIRTLE. As you can see from the Hirtle chart, a photo like this doesn't satisfy any PD-US situation. --Stefan4 (talk) 08:11, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

In the light of this I would say  Delete, and we should translate the corrected PD-1996 part into at least polish and mark the rest as needing translation. Also something should be done about {{PD-1996}}. Someone can just add {{PD-1996}} to {{PD-Polish}} and an image like File:Walenty Maćkowiak Sejm.jpg will be meeting all the requirements. --Jarekt (talk) 19:13, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

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Deleted: Unclear copyright status. Unless we have clear, explicit written/textual, tangible evidence indicating that this file is indeed freely licensed under a Commons compatible license, we cannot host it on Commons FASTILY 09:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)