Commons:Deletion requests/File:Ahmad Shah Durrani - 1747.jpg

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File:Ahmad_Shah_Durrani_-_1747.jpg

Painting apparently by a modern, living Afghan artist, Tapand. Was previously nominated in a batch nomination at Commons:Deletion requests/Paintings by Tapand and kept for two reasons that I believe are both erroneous. First, the uploader claimed that he physically owned the painting and therefore could assert copyright. However, he could not demonstrate that the artist had also assigned the copyright to him together with the ownership of the physical artwork. Second, several editors argued that it was a work of Afghanistan, which has no copyright law and no copyright treaty relations with the US. However, this is irrelevant, because it has not been demonstrated that the work was ever published in Afghanistan. As far as I can tell, it was first published by the uploader on Flickr and here, which makes it a work first published in the US, and hence falling under US copyright law. The uploader made self-contradictory claims about its history, stating both that images were photographs of paintings publicly displayed in the Presidential Palace at Kabul (which may be true for some items, but wasn't demonstrated for this one), and that they were never published before he acquired them (both of these statments can't be true together). The file also lacks proper attribution to the artist. – Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:38, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

 Keep - The only source for this is Flickr and permission is granted to use it here.[1] Furthermore, it is a work of Afghanistan and that allows us to use it here because Afghanistan has no copyright law. The original and copies of this painting are found all over Afghanistan, inside the Ahmad Shah Mausoleum in Kandahar, Kandahar Governor's Palace or Kandahar Museum, President's Palace in Kabul and else where. I'm sure I've seen it in an image at Flickr isafmedia like these other 2 of Tapand's paintings [2] (File:President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan.jpg), [3] (File:King Zahir Shah of Afghanistan.jpg). Ahmad Shah Durrani is the founding father of Afghanistan, and it makes no sense for us to believe that this very important painting is kept from view inside Afghanistan. This painting was uploaded here in 2006, it has been nominated many times and kept. Not to mention that it is used in many many articles.--Officer (talk) 19:29, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

If you believe this was previously published through public display in Afghanistan, you'll have to provide proof of it. So far, what we have is the assertion by the original uploader that he physically owns the picture. Both can hardly be true at the same time. But then again, the uploader was a known serial copyvio offender and abusive sockpuppeter (see en:User:NisarKand), so anything he claimed about it was likely untrue anyway. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:56, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't need to provide unessary proofs. Whatever the uploader of this file claimed in the past is irrelevant, maybe that person didn't know how to present a good argument to keep this Afghanistan image in Commons. The fact of the matter is that this is a photo of a painting which was captured in around 2003 and uploaded to Commons in October 2006. The person by the name of User:NisarKand did not upload this file here. I see that you have blocked that ID for "Rever-warring on Afghanistan" [4], but that person only has a few blocks for edit-warring and none for copyvio, and the sockpuppetry charge was pardoned in December 2006. [5] [6] You need to prove that this is not an Afghanistan image and that the Flickr account "Kandaray" is involved in copyright violations, or show proof that this Afghanistan painting was never published in Afghanistan.--Officer (talk) 01:10, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh, wait, you actually are yet another NisarKand sock. LOL. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:52, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

If you think I'm a sockpuppet you may file a CU. Looking at User:NisarKand's talk page, it appears that he joined Wikipedia in late 2007 to edit Afghanistan articles and then w:User:Tajik, you (w:User:Future Perfect at Sunrise) and w:User:Beh-nam began following him until he was blocked.--Officer (talk) 16:07, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

•  Comment The image does not look to be Afghani type art nor a work that would be subject to Afghani copyright (a nation post WW2), with the style of the art more replicates works of the English through 1890s-1910s, eg. s:en:Picturesque Nepal/s:en:Category:Picturesque_Nepal_(book). One might think that we would be better finding the source of the original art. In lieu of us being able to identify the work from which it was copied, though while it is old there is a rough chance that it is still in copyright within its country of original publishing. Conservative approach would be to delete.  — billinghurst sDrewth 02:57, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

  I suggest that someone asks the person the source of the scan and that be checked for the image to be retained. That it was "on flickr" with a claim of copyright shouldn't be considered definitive for this work IMNSHO.  — billinghurst sDrewth 03:04, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

  billinghurst, I think you are mistaken. This is Afghani art work and is subject to Afghani copyright. What do you mean by "a nation post WW2"? I have seen this image painted on the wall of Kandahar Governor' house, which is in southern Afghanistan. It was on Flickr or Panoramio but don't remember the account. If you look closely here you'll notice File:Ahmed Shah Durrani.jpg hanging in the background in Kandahar, Afghanistan. According to Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Ahmad Shah Durrani - 1747.jpg, the uploader has explained in May 2007 that "I, PRTkand, am the uploader.. of these pictures. I photographed them.. in Kandahar, Afghanistan.. I also have them loaded on to www.Flickr.com.. I took the pictures with my own camera. It appears to me that he was telling the truth although he probably misunderstood Kandahar Governor's House for Kandahar Museum because these paintings are on display in Kandahar Governor's House [7] [8] [9] but that's irrelevant. The one which is being nominated here [10], [11] and [12] all appear to be from the same artist, they do not look to me as professional art work but more of an amateur contemporary Afghani work.

• If you never seen contemporary Afghani art work please see the following: [13], [14], [15], [16]. Notice that these are identical to File:President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan.jpg and File:King Zahir Shah of Afghanistan.jpg. If you still have doubts then how can someone in 1890s-1910s paint an image of the current President of Afghanistan Hamid Karzai [17]?--Officer (talk) 14:03, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

  • The uploader said very clearly he knows who the painter is, and he also uploaded other items from the same artist, which share a similar style. Note that the uploader here is the same person as the flickr user. Of all the things he claimed about the this picture, this is just about the only thing I'm inclined to accept as plausible and likely true. If we were to go as far as considering that even this might have been a lie, wouldn't that be yet another reason to nuke his whole output? But in any case, I'm not seeing what you're seeing about stylistic similarity. There is absolutely no similarity between this and the "Picturesque Nepal" items you point to. In fact, what that comparison shows is that British book illustrators around 1900 had some artistic skills and quality standards; they wouldn't have been caught dead publishing a childishly executed scribble as artistically worthless as this one. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:31, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

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Kept: copyright on a 1747 work? Jcb (talk) 15:07, 14 October 2011 (UTC)