Commons:Categories for discussion/2018/01/Category:Tiaras

Category:Tiaras

See also: Category talk:Tiaras.

Most of the sub-categories of Category:Tiaras disambiguates "tiaras" with (diadems), yet we have a different category for Category:Diadems. en:Wikipedia says "diadem" can mean either tiara or Category:Fillets (headbands), so perhaps Category:Diadems should just be a disambiguation page? Themightyquill (talk) 08:15, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I am new, but I want to say, that "Tiara" in German traditionally means only the Papal Tiara, not a 'Diadem' for a Lady or Princess (although recently in TV I heard somebody say 'Tiara' instead of 'Diadem' under the strong influence of english and american language and culture. But this is only most recently). Indeed, this are two completely different things. Greetings,--Marie Adelaide (talk) 15:03, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@Marie Adelaide: Welcome! That's actually very helpful in explaining the confusion. Indeed the different wikipedia articles don't link up well. As you say, de:Tiara links to en:Papal tiara. en:Diadem links to de:Diadem but they don't seem to refer to the exact same thing. en:Tiara links to de:Tiara (Altertum) but they seem to refer to totally different things (Maybe de:Tiara (Altertum) should link to en:Fillet (clothing)?) Maybe we should just have Category:Female crowns or Category:Women's crowns and avoid the ambiguous terminology of tiara and diadem? - Themightyquill (talk) 15:47, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Hallo Themightyquill, You are right, there is some confusion with the links between the German and the English Articles.

(Attention, this is an error: "1a: In reality en:Diadem means the same as (and should link to) de:Tiara (Altertum).")

Themightyquill, I'm sorry, but I have to correct myself. Unfortunately, this is wrong ! I don't know the corresponding article in English for de:Tiara (Altertum), which is a type of crown in Persian Antiquity, similar to a Phrygian cap... This all is really difficult and quite a confusion.

1b: In reality it seems, that there is no corresponding article in English to de:Tiara (Altertum), but in other languages they exist !--Marie Adelaide (talk) 09:34, 13 June 2018 (UTC))

2: en:Tiara should link to de:Diadem (but that German Article is not very good, but tells something about the history, what is interesting, and is in reality the same subject as in en:Diadem).

3: I'm very sorry, but your idea to link de:Tiara (Altertum) to en:Fillet (clothing) is wrong (unfortunately; please see under point 1).

4: I think one should primarily separate the 'Papal Tiara' as own category (or does it exist already...?).

5: I have to admit, that I have no or only very little experience here on Wiki-Commons to make a decision about the categories here. Perhaps it's a good idea to make a Category:Female crowns to avoid the ambiguous terminology of tiara and diadem?

6: Maybe it could also be helpful if one would make a reference (or instruction) from 'Tiara' to 'Papal tiara' ?

I hope this was a little help and many greetings,--Marie Adelaide (talk) 17:30, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

If we put tiaras under female crowns, wouldn't we lose the distinction between actual crowns (those intended for monarchs and their consorts) and lesser sorts of headwear? For example, we have Category:Consort crowns of the United Kingdom (which is at least mostly women's crowns and includes categories for two specific crowns) and two different ones of Queen Victoria (Category:State crown of Queen Victoria and Category:Small diamond crown of Queen Victoria). I'm not sure how to define the difference. Crowns are often bigger, more like hats, and worn only by monarchs and consorts. Tiaras are usually more headband-shaped and can be worn by non-monarchs. (The rules may vary in different places.) --Auntof6 (talk) 18:03, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

This definition is absolutely correct. A crown (in German: 'Krone') is bigger and for monarchs, a real symbol of kingdom, power, etc., it is or can be used in coronation ceremonies (but not always), and can be for men=kings, imperators or other princes, or for women=queens, etc., but in reality was mostly for men = kings). A tiara (in German: Diadem) is smaller, "headband-shaped and can be worn by non-monarchs" - it is purely feminine (exception : antiquity). In the first Empire-era (Napoleon I; begin of the 19th century) the tiara (German: Diadem) became so important in the gala-court robes. In fact, every aristocratic woman could and had to wear a tiara (diadem) in certain circumstances (as balls or ceremonies). Me too, I thought about the problem, if a tiara (Diadem) is really a crown...? Greetings,--Marie Adelaide (talk) 18:37, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@Marie Adelaide: The German translation is not especially useful, because we're talking about English names for categories which, as we've established, don't match up with German names. @Auntof6: That might be how we tend to think of crowns vs tiaras, but I don't know that it actually fits with reality. This is a crown and so is this. Current subcategoies of Category:Crowns include Category:Flower crowns and Category:Bridal crowns. We already have Category:Royal crowns so they are already separated off. - Themightyquill (talk) 13:52, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Am I the only one who thinks it is incredibly shortsighted, obnoxious and obtuse to just lump the modern tiara together with all ancient depictions of royal diadems? The latter are symbols of Achaemenid and then Hellenistic Greek kingship exclusively. The headdress worn by Kate Middleton and the modern British family bears little resemblance to the cloth (and sometimes gold and jewel-encrusted) headbands worn by ancient Greek kings and queens of the Hellenistic world, let alone your average tiara worn at modern-day weddings around the world. The ancient Greek variety deserves its own damn category if you ask me and these two subjects should definitely be segregated so that it is easy for users to navigate and explore each of them separately. The diadem as it was worn in ancient times is also tangentially related to the modern tiara, which doesn't convey the same symbolic meaning of royal authority, as proven by its casual use by brides at weddings, ballerinas in the performing arts, and even little girls dressed up for Halloween as fantasy princesses and such. The royal diadem in ancient times was considered a sacred symbol that commoners and even nobility weren't even allowed to touch with their hands, let alone wear on their heads, and legally such an act was punishable by death. I don't think we should just flippantly mash together these two radically different items and concepts, not without a better justification than "herr derr derr, the look loosely similar to me, derp". Seriously, folks. For those who don't appreciate the differences between the two, here's a little light reading for you: Pfrommer, Michael (2001). Greek Gold from Hellenistic Egypt. Los Angeles: Getty Publications (Getty Museum Studies on Art by the J Paul Getty Trust). Skip to pages 22-23. You're welcome. PericlesofAthens (talk) 12:11, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

@PericlesofAthens: I don't think your apparent anger is warranted here. No one wants to mix up distinct types of objects. Just the opposite - we want the distinctions to be clear in the category names so that other people don't mix up the image by accident. If you can suggest clear category names to differentiate, that would be great. "Modern tiaras" isn't very specific, but something like Category:Diadems of Ancient Greece or Category:Royal fillets of Ancient Greece would indeed be useful. - Themightyquill (talk) 12:42, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

You basically answered your own question there. That being said, your two suggestions sound fine to me and I would support the creation of those categories. PericlesofAthens (talk) 23:47, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

@PericlesofAthens: I'm not sure which question you are referring to. Those two category names were an either/or in my mind. Do you imagine we need both? What would go in each one? - Themightyquill (talk) 19:29, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

The anger was absolutely warranted. It was and remains nonsense to lump modern female tiaras with ancient male diadems, apparently under the influence of non-English languages. Of course they should have been separated long ago. — LlywelynII 15:54, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

@LlywelynII: You are apparently an expert, so I would urge you to separate the images into distinct and clearly named categories so that no lumping occurs. -- Themightyquill (talk) 08:55, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

First bit done. Welcome. — LlywelynII 11:37, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@Themightyquill, Marie Adelaide, Auntof6, PericlesofAthens, and LlywelynII: where are we in terms of being able to resolve and close this? Can someone summarize? - Jmabel ! talk 20:33, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

@Jmabel: It's another case of "Things called X" because diadems is used by different people to mean different things. In this case, Category:Diadems is theoretically being used to denote ancient diadems, but it's ambiguous because the word "diadems" is also used to refer to Category:Tiaras which look similar in some cases but apparently are entirely different. Moreover, diadems of the ancient Greek variety can also refer to Category:Fillets (headbands). I think a disambiguation seems to be in order, either with a disambig page or a category rename to something less ambiguous, but I'm not sure what to suggest. -- Themightyquill (talk) 20:41, 9 June 2024 (UTC)