Category talk:Coats of arms of peers in the British Isles

Not sure that "Peers" should be capitalized... AnonMoos (talk) 13:51, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Please use Category:Coats of arms of families of England

This category is not logical. In England there is no true aristocracy or nobility as there is on the Continent, where for example all sons of an archduke are themselves archdukes. In England only the eldest son is a nobleman, his younger brothers are gentry. Virtually every gentry family over the centuries has had one member enobled. He may have died childless, so the title became extinct. In no English roll of arms or heraldic dictionary are coats of arms split into gentry and nobility. The unifying factor in heraldry is gentry, not nobility. Every member of the gentry has a coat of arms, otherwise he is not deemed gentry. Almost every noble family (if such a thing exists in England) started as a gentry family. Every one returns to a gentry family (e.g. Berkeley of Berkeley Castle). Thus English coats of arms should all be categorised under Category:Coats of arms of families of England, which will be the all-inclusive category for English heraldry.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 19:40, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

• @Lobsterthermidor: I agree. It's a complete mess. This category and Category:Coats of arms of the Nobility of the United Kingdom, Category:Coats of arms of English nobility‎ and Category:Coats of arms of Scottish nobility‎ all need to be formally discussed. It's completely disorganized too. Why are Category:Coat of arms of Margaret Thatcher‎ and Category:Coats of arms of baronets‎ in a category about nobility? Neither are nobility. — ʷiḳỉℳẚṅ₫¡₳ (talk) 18:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Haha, I didn't recognise your name like that! I'm very glad you agree with me. I'm not sure it needs a formal discussion though, seems like common sense to anyone with basic competence in this topic! I'm actually working slowly and methodically on decanting all those images into Category:Coats of arms of families of England, which has the potential to be a very valuable resource to students of heraldry, if it can be fully comprehensive. Regarding Scottish heraldry, I don't pretend to know much about that, different rules of course, maybe some coats of arms do "go with the title"? I'm sticking to working on English heraldry primarily.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 15:44, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

In England, supporters and coronets go with a title... AnonMoos (talk) 08:43, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

P.S. Margaret Thatcher was of course a "life peer"... AnonMoos (talk) 09:01, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Restore Category

I believe that the decision of Lobsterthermidor (who unfortunately seems to have left the project earlier this year) to empty this category in favour of Coats of arms of families of England/Scotland/Wales/Ireland was flawed and ought to be reversed.

• First, any talk of "families" in heraldic discussions is shaky, given the vigour with which we heraldists suppress talk of "family coats of arms" or, God forbid "family crests".
• Second, a lot of the images in those categories contain coronets, supporters, barred helmets and other insignia which are only to be borne by those possessing peerages and not by all their agnatic relatives.
• Third, not all of the people or "families" concerned can be neatly categorised as English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish.
• Fourth, some of these arms were granted to peers who died with no children, so were never inherited. There is no armigerous family to speak of in these cases. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 16:40, 4 October 2021 (UTC)